Enemy In Shadows Companion Available

Cubicle 7 // 2018
Karanthir
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Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:01 am

As far as I can tell, none of the official WFRP or WFB publications (not counting Boxtree or Black Library) have ever listed a date of death for Karl-Franz's father. In fact, almost all the timelines skip directly from the accession of Wilhelm III to the accession of Karl-Franz. But C7 have explicitly addressed the issue.

The timeline in the WFRP4 rulebook says: "2502 IC Emperor Luitpold III dies in his sleep. In a close vote, Luitpold’s son is elected to replace him, and is crowned Emperor Karl- Franz I in the High Temple of Sigmar in Altdorf." (page 275)

So there's no need to suppose an interregnum, or another emperor (whether of the same house or not) in between Luitpold and Karl-Franz. Unless you prefer the Boxtree chronology to be canon. Personally I always treated the dates in the novels as inaccurate.
macd21
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Tue Dec 03, 2019 5:24 am

FasterThanJesus wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 6:23 am
macd21 wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 1:29 am
The pregens will be coming as a separate download, apparently.
Thanks for the info!

Where did you find out? Also, do you know what the timeframe is?
Someone asked on the Facebook group, and someone from C7 said it was coming as a download. No timeframe though.
FasterThanJesus
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Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:46 am

macd21 wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 5:24 am
Someone asked on the Facebook group, and someone from C7 said it was coming as a download. No timeframe though.
Right, thanks for the update. I'll carry on with the conversions as it's an interesting exercise, anyway.

I noticed that there was a more complete introduction to Padraig @Cubicle7 yesterday. He claims the next thing out is the GM screen. Hopefully we see that this side of Christmas but I somehow doubt it.
Capitaneus Fractus
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Thu Dec 05, 2019 10:44 am

Karanthir wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:01 am
As far as I can tell, none of the official WFRP or WFB publications (not counting Boxtree or Black Library) have ever listed a date of death for Karl-Franz's father.
Boxtree, which is an official publisher, but a novel one, not a roleplay nor battle one, did, p. vij of its Warhammer novels and anthologies:
2491 The Chaos Champion Cicatrice monts a raid on the summer home of the von Meckenberg family, in the Southlands. While Johann and Vukotich escape the slaughter, Wolf is captured (cf Ignorant Armies)
- Emperor Luitpold dies, and is succeded by his son Karl-Franz. Birth of Prince Luitpold.


However Karl Franz was stated being elected emperor in 2502 I.C. in latter role playing game publications.

One possible solution was that Luitpold indeed died in 2491 I.C., Karl-Franz then did succeed as prince of Altdorf and Grand Prince of Reikland but had to wait eleven years before being formally elected emperor, in 2502 I.C.
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totsuzenheni
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Thu Dec 05, 2019 11:11 am

Capitaneus Fractus wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 10:44 am
Karanthir wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:01 am
As far as I can tell, none of the official WFRP or WFB publications (not counting Boxtree or Black Library) have ever listed a date of death for Karl-Franz's father.
Boxtree, which is an official publisher, but a novel one, not a roleplay nor battle one, did, p. vij of its Warhammer novels and anthologies:
2491 The Chaos Champion Cicatrice monts a raid on the summer home of the von Meckenberg family, in the Southlands. While Johann and Vukotich escape the slaughter, Wolf is captured (cf Ignorant Armies)
- Emperor Luitpold dies, and is succeded by his son Karl-Franz. Birth of Prince Luitpold.


However Karl Franz was stated being elected emperor in 2502 I.C. in latter role playing game publications.

One possible solution was that Luitpold indeed died in 2491 I.C., Karl-Franz then did succeed as prince of Altdorf and Grand Prince of Reikland but had to wait eleven years before being formally elected emperor, in 2502 I.C.
I'm not sure, looking at the Boxtree quote as you've written it @Karanthir, that Boxtree give a date for Luitpold dying and Karl Franz's succession, but that Boxtree were placing those events at some time between 2491 and whatever the next date is that they stated.
Theo
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Thu Dec 05, 2019 2:23 pm

IIRC the story with Cicatrice and the Mecklenbergs, "Ignorant Armies" (by Kim Newman alias Jack Yeovil), is really old. And lots of stuff in Newman's stories (much of Drachenfels, indeed) is incompatible with later Warhammer canon.
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totsuzenheni
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Thu Dec 05, 2019 2:54 pm

I took a look at the Boxtree 'Old World Timeline' and it turns out that the next year in that timeline is.... 2492. So that brings us back to where we were before.
Theo wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 2:23 pm
IIRC the story with Cicatrice and the Mecklenbergs, "Ignorant Armies" (by Kim Newman alias Jack Yeovil), is really old. And lots of stuff in Newman's stories (much of Drachenfels, indeed) is incompatible with later Warhammer canon.
My preferred WFRP 'canon' is pretty much Boxtree + WFRP first edition.
Capitaneus Fractus wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 10:44 am
However Karl Franz was stated being elected emperor in 2502 I.C. in latter role playing game publications.
Which later role playing publications?
Wolf
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Fri Dec 06, 2019 12:56 am

From hazy recollection, but didn’t the Boxtree novels timeline end at the year 2500 (suggesting that was the present)? That makes it consistent with the timelines in the WFRP rulebook (and probably whatever edition of WFB was then current - 4?) but not TEW’s 2512 date. Essentially, this makes all their dates screwy and best ignored.

As for Luitpold, i suspect the new TEW will ignore his existence. He wasn’t part of the original, where the lack of his own heir was part of Karl Franz’s weakness, it seemed to me. I had always assumed Luitpold had simply died, however. Childhood mortality was high in our world in the past so is likely to be in the Old World. Many royal heirs died in our world and others found themselves in line for the throne, after all.
Karanthir
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Fri Dec 06, 2019 4:01 am

I'm not going to get into a discussion about what's canon and what's not. After 30+ years everyone has their own version of the canon and what sources they accept as canonical, and even people who agree on the broad strokes will probably disagree on specific details. The thing with Boxtree and WFRP1, though, is that there were a lot more contradictions in those days because there wasn't really anyone overseeing (or enforcing) an official GW canon. And there are sources from that period that outright contradict each other.
Capitaneus Fractus wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 10:44 am
Karanthir wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:01 am
As far as I can tell, none of the official WFRP or WFB publications (not counting Boxtree or Black Library) have ever listed a date of death for Karl-Franz's father.
Boxtree, which is an official publisher, but a novel one, not a roleplay nor battle one, did, p. vij of its Warhammer novels and anthologies:
2491 The Chaos Champion Cicatrice monts a raid on the summer home of the von Meckenberg family, in the Southlands. While Johann and Vukotich escape the slaughter, Wolf is captured (cf Ignorant Armies)
- Emperor Luitpold dies, and is succeded by his son Karl-Franz. Birth of Prince Luitpold.


However Karl Franz was stated being elected emperor in 2502 I.C. in latter role playing game publications.

One possible solution was that Luitpold indeed died in 2491 I.C., Karl-Franz then did succeed as prince of Altdorf and Grand Prince of Reikland but had to wait eleven years before being formally elected emperor, in 2502 I.C.
This is a clear example of such a contradiction, though. The Boxtree books' timeline doesn't line up with the WFRP timeline developed in later sources. If you want to try and make them line up, more power to you (honestly). But you don't need to. There's no suggestion in Boxtree or in the WFRP sources that there was an interregnum or someone else was emperor between Luitpold and Karl-Franz: "Emperor Luitpold dies, and is succeded by his son Karl-Franz". That to me suggests in the Boxtree version of events Karl-Franz became emperor in 2491. This is implicitly supported by the text of some of the novels, but I don't think explicitly stated (the timeline is explicit enough).
totsuzenheni wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 2:54 pm
Capitaneus Fractus wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 10:44 am
However Karl Franz was stated being elected emperor in 2502 I.C. in latter role playing game publications.
Which later role playing publications?
The Enemy Within (original version), page 12: "2502 - Karl-Franz, Wilhelm's great-great-grandson is elected to the throne". This date has been followed by every subsequent WFRP/WFB publication that has a timeline. For me it contradicts the Boxtree timeline. Note, though, no mention of when Luitpold died. Boxtree is the only timeline to mention this prior to 2019.

My main point, though, was that Cubicle 7 have decided to make an explicit statement about Luitpold's death and Karl-Franz's succession.
Karanthir wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:01 am
The timeline in the WFRP4 rulebook says: "2502 IC Emperor Luitpold III dies in his sleep. In a close vote, Luitpold’s son is elected to replace him, and is crowned Emperor Karl- Franz I in the High Temple of Sigmar in Altdorf." (page 275)
If anyone wants to ignore that and keep using the Boxtree date for Luitpold's death, I'm not here to try and stop them. I was just pointing this out. This is the WFRP4 sub-forum after all.
Wolf wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 12:56 am
As for Luitpold, i suspect the new TEW will ignore his existence. He wasn’t part of the original, where the lack of his own heir was part of Karl Franz’s weakness, it seemed to me. I had always assumed Luitpold had simply died, however. Childhood mortality was high in our world in the past so is likely to be in the Old World. Many royal heirs died in our world and others found themselves in line for the throne, after all.
Luitpold (as in Karl-Franz's son) is in the new TEW, but has been dispossessed as heir to the Reikland for unknown reasons - he's still heir to Altdorf though (Enemy in Shadows Companion, page 15).
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Orin J.
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Fri Dec 06, 2019 8:45 am

Capitaneus Fractus wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 10:44 am
Karanthir wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:01 am
As far as I can tell, none of the official WFRP or WFB publications (not counting Boxtree or Black Library) have ever listed a date of death for Karl-Franz's father.
Boxtree, which is an official publisher, but a novel one, not a roleplay nor battle one, did, p. vij of its Warhammer novels and anthologies:
2491 The Chaos Champion Cicatrice monts a raid on the summer home of the von Meckenberg family, in the Southlands. While Johann and Vukotich escape the slaughter, Wolf is captured (cf Ignorant Armies)
- Emperor Luitpold dies, and is succeded by his son Karl-Franz. Birth of Prince Luitpold.


However Karl Franz was stated being elected emperor in 2502 I.C. in latter role playing game publications.

One possible solution was that Luitpold indeed died in 2491 I.C., Karl-Franz then did succeed as prince of Altdorf and Grand Prince of Reikland but had to wait eleven years before being formally elected emperor, in 2502 I.C.
given you have to convene the elector counts, who rule their respective imperial provinces having to wait several years doesn't seem unlikely. especially if there's warfare going on in some of them, which is honestly the norm for the empire.
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skerrigan
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Fri Dec 13, 2019 4:42 am

1-2 years I could believe. 11 years is a little unlikely though.
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totsuzenheni
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Wed Dec 18, 2019 7:31 pm

I've had a quick flick through of the companion and i'm quite pleased by what i've seen, not least the choice to keep things as they were originally intended or written (in at least one case) rather than keep up with some other more recent version of the Warhammer Fantasy universe. I think it bodes well for the rest of the campaign; additions and rewrites.
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Jackdays
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Thu Dec 19, 2019 11:11 am

About old timelines - The original Boxtree timeline has long been pretty outdated and contradicted by many later sources. But that is pretty common in Warhammer. Actually I think it already changed when we got to WFRP1 Warhammer Companion. When you change the years few years forward, the timeline actually connects much better to Slayer Novels and other events … (you can find my timelines and notes from my site).

As for Old Luitpold - Not sure about his death. Always had the idea, that he just died "officially" 2502 IC, and Karl-Franz was elected then.

I like that old or original events and stories are not totally forgotten from official timeline. I think legendary events can fit there, if writers are willing to explore and connect them. WFRP4 decision to go "back in time" to TEW era is pretty good decision and these Directors Cut Versions of TEW (and extras) are interesting. And it gives nice possibilities to wake up these old events and characters. Not, that they probably have ever been forgotten - Even WFRP2 sources mentioned Genevieve saga characters....
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FasterThanJesus
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Wed Jan 22, 2020 12:01 pm

The Cubicle 7 Twitter feed has revealed that the pregen characters will be added for download within a few days. After that I will finally write my review.

As an aside, I hate that Cubicle 7 is making me pay attention to Twitter.
Zisse
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Wed Jan 22, 2020 12:17 pm

FasterThanJesus wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 12:01 pm
As an aside, I hate that Cubicle 7 is making me pay attention to Twitter.
I fully agree. Why can't they just send their newsletter? Same with Facebook and all those discord channels. We have this perfect forum.
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Arnizipal
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Thu Jan 23, 2020 2:55 am

Zisse wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 12:17 pm
I fully agree. Why can't they just send their newsletter? Same with Facebook and all those discord channels. We have this perfect forum.
I don't think they're actually members here :lol:
Although it would be nice to have developer input on the forums.

EDIT: I stand corrected. Graeme Davis is on here :shock:
Jadrax
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Thu Jan 23, 2020 12:30 pm

totsuzenheni wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 7:31 pm
I've had a quick flick through of the companion and i'm quite pleased by what i've seen, not least the choice to keep things as they were originally intended or written (in at least one case) rather than keep up with some other more recent version of the Warhammer Fantasy universe. I think it bodes well for the rest of the campaign; additions and rewrites.
Yeah, the Companion is very solid. More of this sort of thing.
Theo
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Thu Jan 23, 2020 4:05 pm

totsuzenheni wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 7:31 pm
I've had a quick flick through of the companion and i'm quite pleased by what i've seen, not least the choice to keep things as they were originally intended or written (in at least one case) rather than keep up with some other more recent version of the Warhammer Fantasy universe. I think it bodes well for the rest of the campaign; additions and rewrites.
Well, yes and no. It seems - and Andy Law has pretty much confirmed it in a couple of Facebook threads - that the idea is to harmonize the various versions of the setting by using the events of TEW to change parts of it - such as the provinces of the Empire - from the older to the later. I'm not crazy about this idea personally but I see the point of it.
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totsuzenheni
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Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:02 pm

Theo wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 4:05 pm
totsuzenheni wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 7:31 pm
I've had a quick flick through of the companion and i'm quite pleased by what i've seen, not least the choice to keep things as they were originally intended or written (in at least one case) rather than keep up with some other more recent version of the Warhammer Fantasy universe. I think it bodes well for the rest of the campaign; additions and rewrites.
Well, yes and no. It seems - and Andy Law has pretty much confirmed it in a couple of Facebook threads - that the idea is to harmonize the various versions of the setting by using the events of TEW to change parts of it - such as the provinces of the Empire - from the older to the later. I'm not crazy about this idea personally but I see the point of it.
We'll have to wait and see then, as far as that is concerned. I was thinking specifically of the werecats on p.92. There is a note on that page entitled 'Werecats? Really?' that explains that this encounter is:
"presented it here as the encoutner was written in the 1980s, but since that time the identity of the Old World and it's denizens has been considerably refined. For better or worse, Werecats have not remained with us to the present day."
It seemed to me, on my quick read through, that this was largely the approach throughout the Companion.
Theo
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Fri Jan 24, 2020 8:31 am

The werecats are a good point, and I did appreciate the transparency of that note. I suppose the harmonization thing will mostly be about the "big picture" elements.
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