Imperial Calendar

[hallucyon]

Well, I am German, even from the equivalent of the Reikland.

And what is the "real" equivalent of Reikland? Actually I've never thought one might be able to show it on the map of Germany.

I really like the sometimes silly German names in WFRP. It's great fun.

I concur. My knowledge of German is too bad to speak or write, but enough to understand almost all names and terms in Reikspiel. They are lovely!

One suggestion might be the name Geheimnisabend. In German Sunday is Sonntag and Saturday is Samstag. At least in the far west around Cologne an old fashioned name for Saturday/Samstag is Sonnabend. Hence you might use that principal. Not sure if it perfectly fits.

I like it. Consider it stolen, please.

[Totsuzenheni Yukimi]

'Abend' means evening according to the translator. If that's the case then i think that Geheimnisabend could be an interesting alternative name for Geheimnisnacht, and it could be 'Geheimnisnacht' and 'VorGeheimnisabend'.

[Zisse]

Well, I am German, even from the equivalent of the Reikland.

And what is the "real" equivalent of Reikland? Actually I've never thought one might be able to show it on the map of Germany.

With the Reik being the Rhine, I see the Rhineland as the equivalent to the Reikland. I would point to the area left of the Rhine between Koblenz and the Dutch border. Obviously you cannot define it one to one.

One suggestion might be the name Geheimnisabend....

I like it. Consider it stolen, please.

You are welcome.

[Zisse]

'Abend' means evening according to the translator. If that's the case then i think that Geheimnisabend could be an interesting alternative name for Geheimnisnacht, and it could be 'Geheimnisnacht' and 'VorGeheimnisabend'.

The word Vorabend has a meaning either as the evening before a certain day. It can have a more generic meaning, maybe in the sense of foreshadowing. So I would alternatively call it Geheimnisvorabend. Anyway, maybe this is getting to serious, while it should simply be silly.

[CommanderCax]

Well, I am German, even from the equivalent of the Reikland.

And what is the "real" equivalent of Reikland? Actually I've never thought one might be able to show it on the map of Germany.

With the Reik being the Rhine, I see the Rhineland as the equivalent to the Reikland. I would point to the area left of the Rhine between Koblenz and the Dutch border. Obviously you cannot define it one to one.

Well, geographically you might be right, but culturally Reikland clearly is more akin to Prussia than anything else...

[Capitaneus Fractus]

Thank you very much for your suggestions
I am French and play in French, but if the Empire is intended to have Germanic feels, including in its language, then I like to do it well and to use as correct as possible German. Even Early New High German if possible, but I've yet to find an online grammar for it, in French or English... I think it might be silly and correct and archaïc . Like Warhammer Fantasy designers, I alas do not speak German, but as German publishers did feel they had to correct Imperial names, I get that they undoubtedly know better than English designers (just like I can see how French publishers were right to correct Bretonnian names).

Zisse, would you think you might share with us German version of the Imperial calendar (or just give me names of months, week-days, epagomenic days, satellites names) ?

In my calendar rough booklet, I did use this terminology:

For planets and the star:
Imperial name (Eltharin name) - associated Imperial god:
Söllsfiur (Asuryan) - Söll, Dhaz
Rhyanleib (Gia) - Rhya
Mannslieb (P’hílêmathlaños) - Mannan
Mórrslieb (P’hílêsarrielos) - Mórr
Händrichskupferpfenning (Charyb) - Händrich
Lichtbringer Morgendämerung (Deiamol before aurora) - Shallya (the duality of this planet is a reference to Venus)
Lichtbringer Abend (Deiamol after twilight) - Ranald (ref. to Venus)
Ulrichsrotwolf (Tigris) - Ulric
[Something related to Verena?] (Verdra) - [Verena ?]
Kháinesherz (Lokratia) - Kháine
Ishernanleib (Isherna) - Ishea
Others planets are either unknown (Loekia, Voelia) or contested (Obscuria) by Westerners...


Day names:
Like in the Germanic timekeeping, days are divided into nights (divided in twelve relative hours) and daytime (divided in twelve relative hours), in that order.
As night come before daytime in the Ancient Germanic culture, and during a part of the Mediaeval era, I presume (but I may be wrong) it explain why Sonnabend might had been used for the evening between Sonntag and Samstag before being used for the whole Samstag in the area of Cologne.
In the Anglo-Saxon calendar, the night between Sæternesdæg and Sunnandæg was Sunnanniht.

night - daytime :
Neumannslieb - Kalend
Werknacht - Werktag
Fronnacht - Frontag
Marktnacht - Markttag
Bäckernacht - Bäckertag
Bezahlnacht - Bezahltag
Königsnacht - Königsttag
[?] - Frühwoch
Festnacht - Festtag [or Hexensnacht - Hexenstag the 17th day of Hexensmanoth ; or Geheimnissesnacht - Geheimnissestag the 17th day of Geheimnissesmanoth]
[?] - Mittfrühl (spring equinox day)
[?] - Söllenstill (summer söllstice day)
[?] - Mittherbst (autumn equinox day)
[?] - Mondstill [Mondestill if we count the two satellites? or Mannsliebstill?] (winter söllstice day)


Months names
#. name (event: date)
I. Hexensmanoth (periastron: Königsttag 3. Vorhexensnacht?; Neujahrstag: Hexenstag )
II. Hornung (Lenz: Iden des Hornung)
III. Jahrwend
//Mittfrühl (Frühlingspunkt)
IV. Pflugzeit
V. Sigmarzeit (Sommer: Iden des Sigmarzeit)
VI. Sommerzeit
//Söllenstill (Sommersöllenwende)
VII. Geheimnissesmanoth (Apoastron: Königsttag 3. Vorgeheimnissesnacht?; Neusemesterstag: Geheimnissestag)
VIII. Heumanoth (Herbst: Iden des Heumanoth)
IX. Erntezeit
//Mittherbst (Herbstpunkt)
X. Brauzeit
XI. Kaltzeit (Wintar: Iden des Kaltzeit)
XII. Ulriczeit
//Mondstill [Mondetill? Mannsliebstill?] (Wintarsöllenwende)

[Zisse]

I intend to go through your list and see where I can provide input. I need some time during an evening for this, which is rare.
I do not know historic versions of German. So you will only get a contemporary view.

[CommanderCax]

The Warhammer Fantasy designers were not fluent in German, but they indeed used a Collins' Gem English-German dictionary to invent most of the Empire and Phil Gallagher also used his pidgin German he learned whilst working in a Kellogs factory in Bremen as a student...

Why bother with Old High German? No one used that langauge beyond about AD 1000, so early miiddle ages, while the Warhammer World has a more Renaissance feeling. If you really want to give them a more Old High German feeling you could simply get rid of the Umlauts (i.e. ä, ö, ü) (as they were as such an invention of about the 16th century) and you could simply put in "zit" instead of "zeit" and "taga" instead of "tag" for the respective endings.

The following names were used in the German version (basically the same as in the English version) of WFRP for months:

Nachhexen/Nachher
Jahrdrung/Jahrwechsel
Pflugzeit
Sigmarzeit
Sommerzeit
Vorgeheim
Nachgeheim
Erntezeit/Erntemond
Brauzeit/Braumond
Kaldezeit/Kaltmond
Ulriczeit
Vorhexen/Vorher

...and weekdays:

Werktag
Zehnttag
Markttag
Backtag
Steuertag
Königstag
Wochenend
Feiertag

See more or less literal/correct translations to English here https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wik ... l_Calendar.

Mitterfruhl (spring equinox day) --> Tagundnachtgleiche or Frühlingsäquinoktium
Sonnstill (summer solstice day) --> Sommersonnenwende
Mittherbst (autumn equinox day) --> Tagundnachtgleiche or Herbstäquinoktium
Mondstille (winter solstice day) --> Wintersonnenwende

Hope it helps...

[Capitaneus Fractus]

Why bother with Old High German?

I do not, as I said, I bother with Early New High German (Frühneuhochdeutsch in German, haut allemand précoce in French). But I cannot really bother much with it anyway, without having access to a proper grammar.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_New_High_German

The following names were used in the German version (basically the same as in the English version) of WFRP for months:

Nachhexen/Nachher
Jahrdrung/Jahrwechsel
Pflugzeit
Sigmarzeit
Sommerzeit
Vorgeheim
Nachgeheim
Erntezeit/Erntemond
Brauzeit/Braumond
Kaldezeit/Kaltmond
Ulriczeit
Vorhexen/Vorher

...and weekdays:

Werktag
Zehnttag
Markttag
Backtag
Steuertag
Königstag
Wochenend
Feiertag

Thank you very much. Are those translations, from the Tome of Redemption, those which were also used in the (original) Enemy Within? Are, for example, both "Nachhexen" and "Nachher" used in German publications, or is the former the English original and the latter the German rectification?

Where German translation kept coherent through the different German publications? I wonder, because it isn't in French, and because I've seen somewhat different German translations...

For example here: http://members.aon.at/mg2/page_3_1.html
and here: https://whfb-de.lexicanum.com/wiki/Imperialer_Kalender

But, alas, sources aren't always clearly established...

Be sure, anyway, that your whole post certainly help! Thank you very much.

I intend to go through your list and see where I can provide input. I need some time during an evening for this, which is rare.
I do not know historic versions of German. So you will only get a contemporary view.

It would certainly help if you found the time for it.
Thank you very much even if you don't, your intention is anyway appreciated

CF

[Capitaneus Fractus]

What follow would be the corresponding Dwarf calendar... I imagine dwarves not taking much account of Mannslieb cycles and more of stellar cycles of Söll and of zodiacal constellations (reduced to twelve as it doesn't make any sense that the number of zodiacal constellations would differs to the number of months).

Contrary to what is (officially) stated, minor fests of the cult of Grugni do not happen every ten days but every decan, which mean every eleven or twelve days (about 11 1/9 days): it more exactly correspond to the thirty-three sectors of 10° of longitude each from the ecliptic circle since the vernal point. Major fests still happen every hundred days (9 decans = 100 days).

Twelve stellar times of 33 or 34 days each.
#. CLASSICAL NAME, khazalid name (transliteration, "translation"): equivalent of the Imperial calendar (# of days) [associated god]
# of the day. event (related to a cult)

I. GILEON ᚲᚨᛉᚨᚲᛉᛖᛏ (Kazakzet, "War Time"): 33. Pf.-33. Sigm. (34 days) [Grugni, Margileo]
1. khazalid new year, first quaff (Grugni, Smednir)
12. 2nd decan (Grugni)
18. Summerday (Sigmar, that good lad)
24. 3rd decan (Grugni)

II. MAMMIOS ᛉᚺᛟᛗᛖᚱᛉᛖᛏ (Zhomerzet, "Sun Time"): 1.-33. Somm. (33 days) [Verena]
1. 1st decan (Grugni)
12. 2nd decan (Grugni)
23. 3rd decan (Grugni)

III. HASHOOR ᚲᚱᚨᚲ (Krak): Söllenst.-16. Nachg. (33 days) [Ahalt]
1. Zhomerstikul (Grugni, Morgrim)
12. 2nd decan (Grugni)
17. Fornskrak (Gazul)
18. Skraksdeg, Ar-Uzkul (Gazul)
19. Adderskrak (Gazul)
23. 3rd decan (Grugni)

IV. LUPIOS [khazalid name?]: 17. Nachg.-33. Heum. (34 days) [Lupos]
1. Saga (Grugni)
12. 2nd decan (Grugni)
18. Automnday
23. 3rd decan (Grugni)

V. VOBIST ᛖᚷᚱᛁᛉᛖᛏ (Egrizet, "Harvest time"): 1.-33. Ernt. (33 days) [Ranald]
1. 1st decan (Grugni)
12. 2nd decan (Grugni)
23. 3rd decan (Grugni)

VI. KHARNOS ᚡᚨᛚᛞᚨᛉᛖᛏ (Valdazet, "Brew Time"): Mitth.-32. Br. (33 days) [Nurgle]
1. Materhazt (Grugni, Valaya)
12. 2nd decan (Grugni)
23. 3rd decan (Grugni)

VII. RIONYES ᚲᚢᛚᚲᛖᛁᛉᛖᛏ (Kulkeizet, "Need-Heat Time"): 33. Br-33. Kald. (34 days) [Rhya]
1. Second Breech (Grugni)
12. 2nd decan (Grugni)
18. Winterday
23. 3rd decan (Grugni)

VIII. KAKEROS ᚹᚣᚱᛉᛖᛏ (Wyrzet, "Ice Time"): 1.-33. Ulriczeit (33 days) [Kakarol]
1. 1st decan (Grugni)
13. 2nd decan (Grugni)
24. 3rd decan (Grugni)

IX. WYMENOS ᚺᛖᚲᛖᛊ (Hekes): Mond.-16. Nachh. (33 days) [Mannan]
1. Wyrstikul (Grugni)
12. 2nd decan (Grugni)
17. Fornhekes (Gazul)
18. Hekesdeg (Gazul)
19. Adderhekes (Gazul)
23. 3rd decan (Grugni)

X. VERROS [khazalid name?]: 17. Nachh.-33. Horn. (34 days) [Vallich]
1. Keg end (Grugni)
12. 2nd decan (Grugni)
18. Springday
23. 3rd decan (Grugni)

XI. NUTHIOS ᚡᛖᚱᛉᛖᛏ (Verzet, "Sowing time"): 1.-33. Jahrw. (33 days) [Guvaur]
1. 1st decan (Grugni)
12. 2nd decan (Grugni)
23. 3rd decan (Grugni)

XII. DRAKONOS ᛞᚢᚱᚷᛉᛖᛏ (Durgzet, "Preparaton time"): Mittfr.-32. Pflug. (33 days) [Kháine]
1. Materfran (Grugni, Valaya)
12. 2nd decan (Grugni)
23. 3rd decan (Grugni)
33. Turn of the Year (Smednir)

[Capitaneus Fractus]

I doubt it would be much useful, as it is in French, but here is the very rough notice for the calendar.
If you have questions, do not hesitate to ask me.

[Capitaneus Fractus]

I would like to finish that project...

To summarize it:

Day: Rhya's rotation.

---
The Mannslieber calendar:
Year: 12 mannths;
Mannth: 33 days (cycle of Mannslieb: 33 days and 8 hours);
Kalend: the first day of the mannth, at new Mannslieb (not part of the week);
Week: 1/4th of a mannth minus the kalend (8 days);
Söllstice and equinox day: every 100 days, the third of three mannths is followed by a söllstice or an equinox day (not part of the week, nor of the mannth).
New Year Day: the first full Mannslieb after the Winter Söllstice, when Mórrslieb is full too.

So the main differences with the official material is that:
1. the cycle of Mannslieb is 33 1/3 days, instead of 25 days.
2. Hexenstag and Geheimnistag are delayed half a mannth before.
3. Hexenstag and Geheimnistag are no longer set apart mannths.
5. The mannth now always start with the new Mannslieb.
6. The first day of each mannth, the kalend, is not part of the week.
7. The calendar is perpetual, there is one unique model that works for any year.


---
The Stellar calendar:
Year: 12 times (cycle of Rhya around Söll: 400 days);
Time: 33 or 34 days (30° of the ecliptic circle: 33 days and 8 hours);
Decan: 1/3 of a time, hence 11 or 12 days (10° of the ecliptic circle: about 11 days, 2 hours, 39 minutes, 59 seconds and 60 thirds);
New Year Day: archaically and astrologically, the vernal point, id est the spring equinox, but in the Khazalid contemporary use, the following time, with the first quaff.

So the main differences with the official material is that:
1. Khazalids unites their days per 11 1/9 instead of per 10 days.
2. There are 12 birth astrological signs for the sun, set on the ecliptic circle, instead of 20 (but the 8 others signs could be used by astrology for others satellites and planets).
3. Khazalid new year is set on the first quaff instead of hekesdeg.


---
Use:
The Mannslieber calendar would be the main civil imperial calendar: "the" imperial calendar.
The stellar calendar is the Khazalid calendar. It is used, within the Empire, for astrology (each ecliptic star sign equal to a time), by the cults of Sigmar and the corporations of artisans and masons for liturgical purposes.


---
What to do now:
The perpetual calendar is conceptually close to be finished, however, I would still like to implement the cycle of planets and other stellar bodies...

We have their revolutions:
"See the five children of Asuryan: Charyb, the closest to the sun, only takes 80 days to go around; while Deiamol takes 133 and a third of days; Tigris, 200; our world, 400; and Verdra, 800. Compare this to the five Councillors: Lokratia takes 1,600 days, four of our years; Isharna, 10 years; Loekia, 30 years; Voelia, 150 years; and blessed by the Old Ones - is an impressive sight even after so many millennia."
—The Book of Days, Finreir of Saphery

The author, which I presume is Andrew Law, is however mistaken on its intended perfection. To be perfect, Loekia should takes, for exemple, 33 years and Voelia 133.

Those numbers of days are correspond to the respective tropical years. However, to get the synodic cycles that would allow me to put them on the calendar, I would need their respective sidereal years. Perhaps should I considerate that the tropical year is also the sidereal year in the Söllar system? (Or are there ways to estimate the sidereal year from a tropical year ?)

In case sidereal and tropical years are the same, we get, as a synodic cycle:
Charyb: 100 days, 4 time per Rhyan year.
Deiamol: 200 days, 2 time per Rhyan year.
Tigris: 400 days, 1 time per Rhyan year.
---
Verdra: 800 days, 1 time per two Rhyan year.
Lokratia: 533 1/3 days, 1 time per 1 1/3 Rhyan year.
Isharna: 444 4/9 days, 1 time per 1 1/9 Rhyan year.
Loekia: 413.793,103,448 days, 1 time per 1.034,482,759 Rhyan year [if 33 sidereal years: 412 1/2 days, 1 time per 1 1/32 year]
Voelia: 402.684,563,758 days, 1 time per 1.006,711,409 Rhyan year [if 133 sidereal years: 403 3/100 days, 1 time per 1 1/132 year]
Obscuria: if 300 sidereal years: 401.337,792,642 days, 1 time per 1.003,344,482 Rhyan year [if 275 sidereal years: 401 55/137 days, 1 time per 1 1/274 year]

From that point, I get the regularity, but what could I do?

Would I be wrong to divide by 8 the synodic cycle to get the phases of the planets?
Just in case it would correct to simply divide by 8 the synodic cycle...:
Charyb: 12 1/2 days per phase.
Deiamol: 25 days per phase.
Tigris: 50 days per phase.
---
Verdra: 100 days per phase.
Lokratia: 66 2/3 days per phase.
Isharna: 55 5/9 days per phase.
Loekia: 51.724,137,931 days per phase.
Voelia: 50.335,570,47 days per phase.
Obscuria: 50.167,224,08 days per phase.


Would I be wrong to have only three visible phases for planets (gibbous and full)?
Charyb: 37 1/2 days of visibility per phase (150 days with the four cycles).
Deiamol: 75 days of visibility per phase (150 days with the two cycles).
Tigris: 150 days of visibility per phase.
---
Verdra: 300 days of visibility per phase.
Lokratia: 200 days of visibility per phase.
Isharna: 166 2/3 days of visibility per phase.
Loekia: 155.172,413,793 days of visibility per phase.
Voelia: 151.006,711,409 days of visibility per phase.
Obscuria: 150.501,672,241 days of visibility per phase.

Am I correct? Does anyone having good knowledge on astronomy correct me?

Would I be wrong to divide by 36 the sideral cycle to get the position of observed planets from Rhyan, regarding to the stellar signs decans?
Charyb: 2 2/9 days in each decan.
Deiamol: 3 19/27 days in each decan.
Tigris: 5 1/2 days in each decan.
---
Verdra: 22 2/9 days in each decan.
Lokratia: 44 4/9 days in each decan.
Isharna: 111 1/9 days in each decan.
Loekia: 333 1/3 days in each decan.
Voelia: 1666 2/3 days in each decan.
Obscuria: 3333 1/3 days in each decan.

Am I still correct? I really doubt it.