Iltherion wrote: ↑Sat Apr 13, 2024 3:39 pm
Has any attempt been made to reconcile the two ideas? I should think that there is plenty of room in Bretonnia for both.
I had, a long time ago, at the time of WFB6 and in the earliest times of WFRP2, but I think that all I did was undoubtedly mostly lost.
There was, in fact, three official Bretonniæ (I say it out of my mind, while I have a bit forgotten the elements), in fact:
The one described in WFRP1 and in WFB3 core books, corresponds to a very corrupted vision the French
Grand Siècle (
circa the 17th and 18th centuries).
The one described in WFB3's expansions corresponds to the very late French Mediæval Era (
circa the 14th and 15th centuries).
The one described in WFB5 and in latter publications correspond to the classical French Mediæval Era (
circa the 12th and 13th centuries).
My main reconciliation idea was to depart from WFRP1's and WFB5's historical reference, and going back to references closer to WFB3's expansions. The idea that a 18th century's or a 13th century's territory would border a 16th century's one, the Empire, always appeared to be ridiculously stupid to me, even as a teenager. I don't understand how adult could had produced this... Anyway... the Era which is characteristic of the spirit of Warhammer is the early 16th Century, from the AD 1490s (at the time of the Battle of the Maisontaal) to the AD 1520s (at the time of the Storm of Chaos). Warhammer is not mediæval fantasy, but is renaissance fantasy.
So, Bretonnia shall be, in my opinion, also renaissance fantasy. I had came to the conclusion that one of the good rules from whom to take inspiration the very last Valois' in France and of the very last Plantegenêts' in England (up to the Tudors, excluded). Court intrigues such as the one under the rule of Francis the Second of France might be inspiring.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_II_of_France
The king,
le roy, Charles de la Tête d'Or, "who is the least caring of an uncaring elite, living in the great royal palace at Oisillon one hundred miles northwest of Gisoreux, surrounded by favourites, sycophants and countless servants" might be enriched by things inspired from characters such Lewis the Eleventh.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_XI
The king Louen Leoncœur, seen as a more knight-king, might rather be enriched by things inspired from characters such as Francis the First and the Second of France or Richard the Second of England.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_I_of_France
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_II_of_England
As for having Louen crowned in 2500 I.C. but not king between 2502 IC. and 2515 IC, it might simply be ignored, or might be explained by a conflict similar to the Hundred Years Wars (which was a conflict between two French families, one of it holding lands in England, for the crown of France, contrary to the nationalistic teaching which makes it being a war between England and France) and to the War of the Roses. From AD 1431 to AD 1453, there was, after all, two crowned kings of France: Henry of Lancaster and Charles of Valois, so having two simultaneous kings is perfectly possible. In a less conflictual situation, it was also an use, in Mediæval Era, when the primogeniture wasn't perfectly established, for a king to crown king his elder son while still alive. There was, then, two kings: the father and the son...
What is interesting in the Earliest Modern Era, is that it is a time were mediæval knighthood still matters, socially, socially and militarily, so many aspects of WFB5-8's Bretonnia, including full plate armours, can be borrowed, while the modern era, the state building and the class of civil servants was birthing, so many aspects of WFRP1's Bretonnia can be borrowed too.
For example, the description from WFRP1's and WFB3's core books might apply to the Urban Bretonnia, to its bourgeoisies (the non-noble wealthy and the middle classes: typically merchants, investors, and professionals such as doctors and lawyers and the dwellers in the small burgs) and to its
noblesse de cloche (mayors and aldermen of certain cities under royal charter who are considered gentry)
et de robe (the magisterial class that administered royal justice and civil government who earned a title of nobility through generations of long periods of public service, such as bureaucrats and civil servants or who bought it, such as rich merchants).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobles_of_the_Robe
While the description from WFB5 to WFB8's and from WFRP2's books might rather apply to the Rural Bretonnia, to its peasantry,
serfs et vilains, and to its
noblesse d'épée (the hereditary gentry and nobility who originally had to perform military service in exchange for their titles).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobles_of_the_Sword
To keep Warhammer's grimness, the Bretonnian noblesse of the sword might be stained by the corruption of a small but significant share of its members -without necessarily realising it- within cults of mysteries of aspects of Khorne (taking inspiration from the mysteries of Mithra), while the noblesse of the gown would rather tend to be stained by cults of mysteries of aspects of Slaanesh.
The
fleur de lys is a common symbol in Bretonnia, which, in the Warhammer World, might be a reference to the cult of Ishernos, which might had kept some importance in Bretonnia. There are also the important cult of Shallya, which mirrors the importance of the marial cult in France (the blue colour of France and the fleur de lys is a reference to Mary, as can be read in Pastoureau's
Le Roi tué par un cochon:
https://booksandideas.net/The-Blue-and-the-Pink ).
Then, there are elements of the cult of the Lady as an Eltharin cult. I remember that it was something that I designed before official publications decided to present it as something explicit
. In
Pour la gloire d'Ulric, the royal court and ministers of the king were infiltrated by cultists of the Horned Rat.
Schematically, if the Empire is a human realm influenced by dwarrows, Bretonnia can be a human realm influenced by elves.
I'll try to look if I might find some elements of what I've summarized... (but I doubt it, it was mainly published in a forum that, alas, no longer exists).