Orin J. wrote: ↑Fri Mar 26, 2021 9:57 am
Visitor Q wrote: ↑Fri Mar 26, 2021 7:26 am
Not sure I buy Hashut being a god of law even within homebrew stuff. Kad'ai fire demons, Bull centaurs, fangs and mass human sacrifice all seem pretty Chaotic to me. Seems like you'd have to write out so much official material there's not much point keeping the name.
fractulis is probably not using the later stuff introduced by the forgeworld releases and trying to stick to earlier material, although even then, there's some mentions of the chaotic mutations they undergo only being retrained by their natrual dwarfen nature. it also doesn't really align with his canonical title "father of darkness" but i guess you could argue that the soot their engines constantly pump out is the real reason the dwarfs favor industry and hashut is a chaos god of pollution......hm....
Indeed... albeit I might add relevant later material. In case of Forgeworld release, the main reason I not use them is, however, that I am not aware of them. Still, I am not sure, yet, which "official material" should I write out so much...
My feeling on "natural dwarve nature" is that it can be kept as such: that is part of a resistance of chaos that Dwarves naturally have, and that Law cultist might get... At higher levels, it even strike on the natural tendency of life to evolve, to mutate... Or it can be changed so Hashut cultists rather gets these immutations as a reward of their chaotic god of law (gods of laws being an aspect of the plain Chaos).
On Hashut's canonical title of "father of Darkness" I don't see how it doesn't align with law... It could be a form of address for a god of all religion. Darkness is neither the Chaos, the Cosmos nor the "Balance": darkness is simply the lack of light. A pure space, without any photon to degrade the matier is in a state of darkness. That is something that can, arguably, go as much well with Law than with other religious ideologies.
His aspect as god of Greed might be a little more problematic, but nothing that would be unexplainable, in my humble opinion... As used to state Montesquieu, frugality is sometime perceived as greed:
Montesquieu wrote:Les politiques Grecs qui vivoient dans le gouvernement populaire, ne reconnoiſſoient d’autre force qui pût le ſoutenir, que celle de la vertu. Ceux d’aujourd'hui ne nous parlent que de manufactures, de commerce, de finances, de richeſſes & de luxe même.
Lorſque cette vertu ceſſe, l’ambition entre dans les cœurs qui peuvent la recevoir, & l’avarice entre dans tous. Les déſirs changent d’objets ; ce qu’on aimoit, on ne l’aime plus ; on étoit libre avec les lois, on veut être libre contr’elles ; chaque citoyen eſt comme un eſclave échappé de la maisſn de son maître ; ce qui étoit maxime, on l’appelle rigueur ; ce qui étoit regle, on l’appelle gêne ; ce qui étoit attention, on l’appelle crainte. C’eſt la frugalité qui y eſt l’avarice, & non pas le désir d’avoir. Autrefois le bien des particuliers faiſoit le tréſor public, mais pour lors le tréſor public devient le patrimoine des particuliers. La république est une dépouille ; & la force n’eſt plus que le pouvoir de quelques citoyens & la licence de tous.
"The politic Greeks who lived under a popular government, knew no other support but virtue. The modern inhabitants of that country are intirely taken up with manufactures, commerce, finances, riches and luxury.
When virtue is banished, ambition invades the hearts of those who are disposed to receive it, and avarice possesses the whole community. The desires now change their objects; what they were fond of before, becomes indifferent; they were free, while under the restraint of laws, they will now be free to act against law; and as every citizen is like a slave escaped from his master's house, what was a maxim of equity, they call rigour; what was a rule of action, they call constraint; and to precaution they give the name of fear. Frugality, and not the thirst of gain, now passes for avarice. Formerly the wealth of individuals constituted the public treasure; but now the public treasure is become the patrimony of private persons. The members of the commonwealth riot on the public spoils, and its strength is only the power of some citizens, and the licentiousness of the whole community." (Montesqieu, L'eſprit des loix, III, iii.)
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Mass human sacrifices are obviously neither Chaotic, nor Lawful: they are violent and might happen in the frame of a Chaotic or a Lawful cult, just like it might happen in the frame of other cults. Human sacrifices were quite widespread in our History which isn't related, by any means, to
Warhammer's Chaos Gods... (are Aztec "pretty Chaotic" to Q?).
To quote
Wikipedia: "Human sacrifice may be a ritual practiced in a stable society, and may even be conducive to enhance societal unity (see: Sociology of religion), both by creating a bond unifying the sacrificing community, and in combining human sacrifice and capital punishment, by removing individuals that have a negative effect on societal stability (criminals, religious heretics, foreign slaves or prisoners of war)."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_sacrifice
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On K'daai fire demons, I've just checked on Internet and they just seem to be daemons whose description might indistinctly make them Chaos daemons or Law daemons... They even are fire daemons, which means they are elemental daemons, which, arguably, might link them to the previously detailed idea of immutations to mineral forms or elemental matier (here as fire). What is elemental matier, if not something that rise after Chaos leave?
Ovidius wrote:... Ante mare et terras et quod tegit omnia caelum
unus erat toto naturae vultus in orbe,
quem dixere chaos: rudis indigestaque moles
nec quicquam nisi pondus iners congestaque eodem
non bene iunctarum discordia semina rerum.
nullus adhuc mundo praebebat lumina Titan,
nec nova crescendo reparabat cornua Phoebe,
nec circumfuso pendebat in aere tellus
ponderibus librata suis, nec bracchia longo
margine terrarum porrexerat Amphitrite;
utque erat et tellus illic et pontus et aer,
sic erat instabilis tellus, innabilis unda,
lucis egens aer; nulli sua forma manebat,
obstabatque aliis aliud, quia corpore in uno
frigida pugnabant calidis, umentia siccis,
mollia cum duris, sine pondere, habentia pondus.
Hanc deus et melior litem natura diremit.
nam caelo terras et terris abscidit undas
et liquidum spisso secrevit ab aere caelum.
quae postquam evolvit caecoque exemit acervo,
dissociata locis concordi pace ligavit:
ignea convexi vis et sine pondere caeli
emicuit summaque locum sibi fecit in arce;
proximus est aer illi levitate locoque;
densior his tellus elementaque grandia traxit
et pressa est gravitate sua; circumfluus umor
ultima possedit solidumque coercuit orbem...
"Before the Sea and Lande were made, and Heaven that all doth hide,
In all the worlde one onely face of nature did abide,
Which Chaos hight, a huge rude heape, and nothing else but even
A heavie lump and clottred clod of seedes togither driven,
Of things at strife among themselves, for want of order due.
No sunne as yet with lightsome beames the shapelesse world did vew.
No Moone in growing did repayre hir hornes with borowed light.
Nor yet the earth amiddes the ayre did hang by wondrous slight
Just peysed by hir proper weight. Nor winding in and out
Did Amphitrytee with hir armes embrace the earth about.
For where was earth, was sea and ayre, so was the earth unstable.
The ayre all darke, the sea likewise to beare a ship unable.
No kinde of thing had proper shape, but ech confounded other.
For in one selfesame bodie strove the hote and colde togither,
The moist with drie, the soft with hard, the light with things of weight.
This strife did God and Nature breake, and set in order streight.
The earth from heaven, the sea from earth, he parted orderly,
And from the thicke and foggie ayre, he tooke the lightsome skie.
Which when he once unfolded had, and severed from the blinde
And clodded heape, he setting eche from other did them binde
In endlesse friendship to agree. The fire most pure and bright,
The substance of the heaven it selfe, bicause it was so light
Did mount aloft, and set it selfe in highest place of all.
The second roume of right to ayre, for lightnesse did befall.
The earth more grosse drew down with it eche weighty kinde of matter,
And set it selfe in lowest place. Againe, the waving water
Did lastly chalenge for his place, the utmost coast and bound,
Of all the compasse of the earth, to close the stedfast ground."
(Ovidius, Metamorphoses, I, v. 5-31).
For me, K'daai might easily fit as Law daemons.
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On Bull centaurs, they might stay chaotic creatures (mutants) serving a chaotic god of Law. They weren't created by Hashut, they were created by the collapse of Warp Gates, in the time of the chaotic flood on the Warhammer World: "Many centuries ago, during the Time of Chaos, a fraction of those [dwarrows] that survived the onslaught became horrifically mutated, their stubborn Dwarf resistance to the warping taint overwhelmed utterly by the awful energies to which they were subjected, and so the first Bull Centaurs were born."
One might even replace (or combine) this "stubborn dwarf resistance to the warping taint" by a grace from Hashut.
https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wik ... ur_Renders