Orin J. wrote: ↑Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:24 pmCapitaneus Fractus wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2020 3:26 pm
In a polytheist society, things are simpler. Gods are natural phenomenons that we know and Khaíne wouldn't be considered, alone, as being "a positive part of the political system" more than the rain, the sun, stars, wind, birds, ageing, insects, illness, the moon, birth, air, sea, death, clouds, &c. There are no false gods, there are no false way to worship gods, there is no orthodoxy.
even a casual review of the history of the roman or egyptian empires shows us this isn't true, [...]
Your review is alas excessively too casual, then. I can say that I have no doubts you'll fail to find any valid historical example that would goes against what I've stated in that quote.
Orin J. wrote: ↑Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:24 pm[...] as the ruling government can and will assert authority over worship for their own benifit. this seems to be the underlying pin in our disagreement and i'm not sure why. in this sense, it's perfectly normal for the government to influence worship as a matter of "public safety" even if it is just an excuse to assert authority over the churches.
There isn't any disagreement between us on that part.
As far as I understood your messages, the disagreement is rather on the fact that a polytheist society wouldn't realistically forbid the worship of a god of its pantheon, something that you deny while I do not. Am I correct?
Orin J. wrote: ↑Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:24 pmCapitaneus Fractus wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2020 3:26 pmThe cult of Khaíne, as an activity, wouldn't be considered in itself through the frame of "direct political power or positive social influence" than the building of roofs. If some builders build weird roofs, the building of roofs will not be forbidden, but the way roofs are build might be restricted. The activity to worship Khaíne isn't much different, in a polytheist context, to the activity to farm of grains or livestock, to observe of stars, to practice of medicine and all human activities related to the nature...
You're really trying to take khaine's worship into the lands of fanciful abstraction there. which is fine, for your own plot development but that's now what we're doing here. [...]
I am describing how Khaíne's cult could be made "realistic" within the frame of "Imperial polytheism", which happen to be the object of our thread, if I understood it correctly.
Orin J. wrote: ↑Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:24 pm[...] khaine is explicitly the god of murder in fantasy and fills less the role of a war god worshiped for bringing victory and more the role of a god of destruction sacrificed to bring ruin to others. this inherently negative nature to his aspects is rather different than some diety of natural matters. [...]
I agree with the most part of it. I would only put into perspective that
1. violence, death and destruction are also natural phenomenons and that;
2. violence can sometime be useful and even legitimate, life needs death and destruction allows reconstruction;
3. in the frame of a war, bringing victory to friendly armies or bringing ruin to hostile armies is, in a good part, a question of perspective...
So, while I do not fully agree with what you say, I still agree with the most part of it. That's why I suggested in my previous quote to look at Ares to see how a god like Khaíne might be worshipped in a realistic polytheist society. Ares, like Khaíne, was explicitly a destructor of cities, a murderer, a bloodthirsty god, the carrion's bringer, and the curse of men (to quote few of his epithets).
Orin J. wrote: ↑Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:24 pm[...] really khaine is closer to sigmar in nature, being worshiped as the deity of a wholly human* behavior.
*well, sentient beings. elves and all.....
(I am not sure to understand what you mean here...).
Orin J. wrote: ↑Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:24 pmCapitaneus Fractus wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2020 3:26 pmThe cult of Khaíne, as an organization, might obviously be considered through the frame of "direct political power or positive social influence", but it wouldn't lead to what you suggest. Would there be some unsurmountable problems with members of the cult of Khaíne that those members would be replaced by others... just like if there is a problem with the miller's union, you'll attempt to change millers without abolishing mills. If a free cult of Khaíne lead to undesired outcomes, then, the cult of Khaíne will be restricted. It might, perhaps, be only allowed by public and official worship.
if the miller's union was found to be ritually killing people to praise their mills, the miller's union would be shut down...
So are we both suggesting that one organization would be shut down (= changing millers / changing Khaíne's cultists) without forbidding the activity of millers (=abolishing mills / = abolishing the worship of Khaíne)?
Orin J. wrote: ↑Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:24 pmCapitaneus Fractus wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2020 3:26 pmHow Ares was worshipped in Ancient Greece might gave a somewhat good example of how Khaíne -which is not only a murderer god but also a bloody war god- should be worshipped in a polytheistic Old World.
Imperial religious matters already have three war gods, and khaine really isn't among them. [...]
Khaíne is stated as a war god in dozens of official
Warhammer Fantasy's publications. That's even a quite major part of its myth.
See, for example:
Jervis Johnson wrote:"Khaine has been worshipped by the Elves since well before the birth of the Dark Elves. He is the Elf god of war, murder, hatred and destruction. He is the destroying god, who represents to the Elves the fact that in order for there to be life there must also be death, in order to have peace there must also be war, in order to have happiness there must be suffering, in order to have love there must also be hatred and murder.
Khaine still has his place in the pantheon of gods worshipped by the High Elves, but his destructiveness is balanced by other Elf gods that represent aspects of the High Elf character opposed to his nature. The High Elves see Khaine as the god of unleashed violence. His murder lust is there to be used when danger threatens but it must be controlled and used wisely." (Jervis Johnson, Warhammer Armies: Dark Elves, WFB4-5, p. 6.)
Robert J. Schwalb wrote:"But Khaine is not exclusive to these bloodthirsty Elves. No, he has a presence even amongst Humanity. Imperials associate Khaine with Morr, citing myths that link the two as brothers, each battling for control over the province of death. The Lord of Murder is upheld by killers, thieves, and even some soldiers." (Robert J. Schwalb, Tome of Corruption: Secrets from the Realm of Chaos, WFRP2, p. 161.)
As a side note and as you were naming "Roman and Egyptian empires",
conferamus those two quotes with the
History of Herodotus :
Herodotus wrote:The Heliopolitans have the reputation of being the best skilled in history of all the Egyptians. What they told me concerning their religion it is not my intention to repeat, except the names of their deities, which I believe all men know equally. If I relate anything else concerning these matters, it will only be when compelled to do so by the course of my narrative. [...]
The Egyptians, they went on to affirm, first brought into use the names of the twelve gods, which the Greeks adopted from them; and first erected altars, images, and temples to the gods; and also first engraved upon stone the figures of animals. In most of these cases they proved to me that what they said was true. [...]
Almost all the names of the gods came into Greece from Egypt. My inquiries prove that they were all derived from a foreign source, and my opinion is that Egypt furnished the greater number. For with the exception of Neptune and the Dioscuri, whom I mentioned above, and Juno, Vesta, Themis, the Graces, and the Nereids, the other gods have been known from time immemorial in Egypt. This I assert on the authority of the Egyptians themselves. The gods, with whose names they profess themselves unacquainted, the Greeks received, I believe, from the Pelasgi, except Neptune. Of him they got their knowledge from the Libyans, by whom he has been always honoured, and who were anciently the only people that had a god of the name. The Egyptians differ from the Greeks also in paying no divine honours to heroes. (Herodotus, History, II.)
Herodotus explains here that Greeks took names of gods from Egyptians. Not that they gave the same exact names, as Ζεύς,
Zeýs, /zděu̯s/, "Zeus" isn't the same name as



,
Jmn, /jaˈmaːnuw/, "Amon" (the hieroglyph here is approximative, it lack a wavy line under the rectangle). That isn't what all men known equally. Egyptians rather gave to them the naming convention, that is to say the transmission to the Greeks of their understanding, distribution, classification and denomination of the superhumans natural phenomenons who are called "gods". This naming convention is what lead Amon to be a name that would be simply translated as Zeus. Not that stories around Amon are exactly the same as Zeus (stories on Zeus aren't the same within various parts of Greece anyway), but that Amon is the Egyptian interpretation of the same phenomenon that Greeks interpret as Zeus. Just like Englishmen interpret and understand as "the wind" what Frenchmen interpret and understand as
le vent...
Understanding which god is the expression of which supra-human phenomenon is what, according to Herodotus, all men known equally, or more exactly,
misknown equally...
That is how should be, in my humble opinion, the Old World's polytheism: an understanding, distribution, classification and denomination of the manifestation of warp powers in the material world
and of their interactions with Old Worlders' souls, through the teachings of Asurs who themselves got this knowledge from Old Slanns. The Old World religion would, then, be the activity of mortals' society to make use of warp powers to avoid bad outcomes and to favour good outcomes. Then, poets created myths: writing and singing epic, comic, tragic stories on those warp powers in order to make them more easily understandable, through anthropocentrism and metaphor.
Destruction, life and death, peace and war, happiness and suffering, love, hatred and murder are phenomenons who are part of this world and who are named Khaíne. Like Egyptians with Montu, Greeks with Ares and Latins with Mars, Old-Worlders have to take advantage of those common phenomenons and to avoid the worst. The best way isn't to deny the reality of Khaíne but to enter into relation with him in order to flatter, to appease, to constrain or to channel him. This relation is called a cult and is done through worship.
Veniam, Duelli Malleum, phantasticum ludum personae uidebo, in fera terra periculosorum aduenturorum ludebam.