Comparison with Zweihander

Cubicle 7 // 2018
Karanthir
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Fri Jan 24, 2020 8:22 am

Graak wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 5:33 am
Thanks Karanthir!
The idea I had about Fox was that he tried to make his wfrp-homemade-clone when FFG was no more supporting the line and maybe he tried to acquire license from GW. C7 did it instead and I've always thought (from comments in some forum or blog I can't recall) that he tried to slip in C7 to propose his product there but they basically declined. So everyone parted their way. This is a personal reconstruction though, don't take it too seriously.
You might be right there, and I misremembering some of the details (which were probably second or third hand anyway).

But...
Graak wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 5:33 am
But now, I think the OP would benefit more from comments regarding the game mechanics and how-it-plays from people who actually tried it instead of discussing on what constitute illecit use or not.
Yes, you're definitely right there. I have the core books for both WFRP4 and Zweihander. There are things I like in both, and things I don't like in both. But since I haven't actually played either I'll refrain from commenting.
Capitaneus Fractus
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Sat Jan 25, 2020 10:55 am

Karanthir wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 3:36 am
Not saying it's necessarily "theft", but it's certainly more blatant than the gods and magic in Zweihander.
Sorry to state again the obvious, but it is quite the reverse than what you are not saying: it is necessarily not theft.

Games Workshop could had stole any support on which is draw or described the Chaos star, that would had lead Moorcock to no longer enjoy his property of that support. Games Workshop couldn't had stole a concept such as what should look and what should mean a chaos star...
Moorcock didn't lose his ability to enjoy drawing or describing the Chaos star, just because Games Workshop did happen to draw or to describe it. Only material things can be stolen.

Moorcock had an alleged loss of potential income by having Games Workshop use his intellectual property without paying him in accordance (alleged because he didn't go to tribunals, so we can't know with certitude...). It is very much different.
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Toby Pilling
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Sat Jan 25, 2020 3:15 pm

I found the wound mechanics in Zweihander completely incomprehensible, I'm afraid. I did like the mechanics to travelling a long distance, as I recall, having played it twice in scenarios at a previous TOBCON.
I much prefer 4th edition WFRP.
FasterThanJesus
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Sat Jan 25, 2020 6:22 pm

In fairness, Karanthir had theft in quotes, suggesting a colloquial use of the term and not a legal definition.
Hteph
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Mon Jan 27, 2020 12:19 am

i have always seen Zwei' as the result of that 3rd being as it was. A hobby project that got surprisingly much traction and grew into something bigger.

That GW didn't bring forth the CD hammer has always amazed me tho. I thought perhasp they saw it as a way of getting rid of tiresome fanboys lamenting them for killing of 2nd and selling out to the FFG and their Frankengame (interesting concept, not WFRP tho).

I bougth Zwei' but I saw no reason to go there as my houseruled 2nd felt enough. Now with the 4e being a bit .... messy, I think I turn Grognard and unmoving, perhaps port the career system backward .... and some little things here and there.
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Jackdays
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Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:12 am

Back to original question. I like ZWEIHÄNDER system/engine/game mechanics. We have played some amount and it works. It's not perfect, but I have never really found fully perfect RPG system. I would have prefered some additional things or some things to be little different, but that is me. It still works. Creating some additional house rules can be fun. It's more how much do you need to fix things.

Does it work with Warhammer World? Yes. It is pretty easy to use it with Warhammer world, as IT IS inspired by WFRP. Like mentioned, you can see that from the rules. Even it is also inspired by many other Grim&Perilous settings and it is open game system (not tied to any setting), you don't really have to do much to use it with Warhammer - personally I have created some house rules... (It can be used with other settings, but you can use any WFRP version also with some minor changes...)

I don't think ZWEI rules are too heavy, even rulebook is pretty large and seems like full of rules. ZWEI Core Rulebook just covers much more stuff, than for example WFRP4 Core Rulebook (like more magic, optional rules, bestiary...etc). System is actually pretty smooth - I like the Combat, Magic is simple, Social Rules, Travel... And rules are pretty familiar, because it's d100 system and uses same type of career and experience mechanics as most WFRP versions.
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doc_cthulhu
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Thu Feb 13, 2020 10:48 pm

My comparison of the systems should have been reviews of both games by reading them. Haven't played either. Mainly because 00% system just doesn't do anything for me right now. But for some reason I cannot find the review I wrote about Zweihänder in either of my blogs. I'm quite certain I did one. Oh well.

Here's the WFRP4 reviw:
https://blog.guildredemund.net/2018/10/ ... h-edition/

As for the debate my three pences: Zweihänder started out as a project by the fans for the fans. It was a collaborative effort to rekindle a system like WFRP1 and WFRP2 in the times of WFRP3. As a fan project the management and timeframes were what you would expect. Everything took ages. Eventually enough time (and in some cases money) had been spent on the project that just abandoning it apparently wasn't a choice.

What Zweihänder is now is the salvaged first edition of its rules. It is a separate game system that has clear roots in WFRPs first two editions (and by that extension to Basic Roleplaying system that WFRP 1st was trying to recreate/improve). The original love for the Old World is still there in the main rulebook. It shows everywhere between the lines most likely because the "grim and perilous system" had to start somewhere. As I understand it the goal (for years now) has been to increase the number of playable games that use the system. Colonial Gothic is coming and Main Gauche was published some time ago.

Claiming that Zweihänder is a "theft" is both accurate and stupid. It's accurate in the way that Zweihänder clearly would not be without WFRP nor the fan base it was created for. But there was a demand for it all those years ago. I suspect that when the second edition for Zweihänder eventually is published the Old World is faded out and the core book will work as a "basic roleplaying" rulebook.
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CapnZapp
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Fri Feb 14, 2020 1:24 am

doc_cthulhu wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 10:48 pm
Zweihänder started out as a project by the fans for the fans. It was a collaborative effort
What you say might once have been true but let's admit it would be misleading to characterize Zweihander as "by the fans for the fans" now. For quite some time there's only one person publishing it, only one person getting any profits, only one person banned by rpg.net and Wikipedia for repeated attempts at inserting his game into each and every discussion/article related to WFRP - he even managed to make himself admin of StS for a while and turned public enemy #1 to the pirates over at 4chan! I think it's only fair to say it is Daniel Fox' personal vanity project by now... like the Zweihander subreddit which he is in absolute control of.
Claiming that Zweihänder is a "theft" is both accurate and stupid.
That's a quite clever way to put it!
doc_cthulhu
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Fri Feb 14, 2020 1:35 am

CapnZapp wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 1:24 am
What you say might once have been true but let's admit it would be misleading to characterize Zweihander as "by the fans for the fans" now. For quite some time there's only one person publishing it, only one person getting any profits, only one person banned by rpg.net and Wikipedia for repeated attempts at inserting his game into each and every discussion/article related to WFRP - he even managed to make himself admin of StS for a while and turned public enemy #1 to the pirates over at 4chan! I think it's only fair to say it is Daniel Fox' personal vanity project by now... like the Zweihander subreddit which he is in absolute control of.
That might very well be true (edit: and I'm pretty sure that it is since I think I can count on you staying with WFRP for my dark years). I dropped out after a year or two of banging my head against the wall and didn't look back. I'm aware that there were some controversial things happening and tried my best the keep away from them as I didn't have the time nore the energy to get to the bottom of things.

I can understand the need of getting all out of a vanity project though. In good and in bad.

On the original subject - I have no idea which one of these games is "better". I like the fact that Zweihänder has the Colonial Gothic supplement incoming and is willing to branch out. But on the other hand "official" games have that easiness in them that you do not have to make house rules and can explain things as "this is the way the are meant to be".

(My controversial opinion is that I liked the WFRP3 system way more as a game than any other WFRP edition. It was implemented poorly but would FFG had had the license until second edition it could have been an excellent game.)
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