End Times: Nagash - The 'Bad'

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Toby Pilling
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Joined: Wed May 15, 2019 5:14 am

Thu Oct 03, 2019 12:16 pm

1. Endless Quest Items - to raise Nagash from the dead you require his three magic staffs. Oh, make sure you get hold of his magic crown and his withered hand. Err... I think you also need his magic armour. Ah , I almost forgot - you'll also need his nine magic tomes. Got that?

2. A Terrible Plan - Manfred's plan is the dumbest plan for an arch-baddie in any fiction I've ever read. It's doomed to fail and doesn't even make any sense when he does finally disclose it. Why are the vampires of the world following him and his disastrously inept plan? Who knows.

3. Retcons - not only is the Storm of Chaos wiped from the annals of history, but the effectiveness of entire factions are effectively changed. Somehow the Skaven go from being eternally doomed to squabble internally in comic disunity, to toppling entire countries in weeks if not days - Tilea and Estalia are just wiped out by the ratmen. Gosh - who knew it was so easy? If they are dominant though, then all must bow to the undead - Manfred and chums crush every army they face, that I count to be at least seven (Bretonnians, Beastmen, Dwarves, Empire, Skaven, Wood Elves and High Elves). What does Manfred need to raise Nagash when his forces can conquer the world without him? It doesn't make any sense.
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Hyarion
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Thu Oct 03, 2019 12:59 pm

Without knowing what you plan to put in the 'Ugly' category, I would also put the whole Malekith fiasco in this category as well.

Malekith attempts to become the new Phoenix King, gets rejected in the Flame of Asuryan, and then leaves with his followers to go become the Dark Elves.
In the End Times, Asuryan appears to him and tells Malekith that it was all preparation for this moment, that Malekith is the rightful Phoenix King, and it was all one big character test/preparation for this moment to become the leader of a re-united Elven race.
I hold the glaive of Law against the Earth.
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Orin J.
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Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:32 pm

in hindsight, the end times narrative confusion makes sense- orders from on high dictated what happened, not plot or game balance. Putting the results of the end times aside for the moment to consider the story in a vacuum- it's just not good. a child wouldn't find the story compelling and the most self-important fan of the evil factions in warhammer is unlikely to feel like defending the nonsense that they win by.
mannfred von carstien is something of a fool long before the end times was conceived, but even that doesn't justify his inexplicable quest to revive the lord of the undead, who hated the vampires more than anything for betraying him- to say nothing of the unexplained unity of the vampires to aid him in this self-destructive excursion. nagash's resurrection is an ending lacking a story to fit it, the whole of the tale written backwards from the inevitable conclusion and making no sense as a functioning narrative or anything other than self-justification.

how sad that we'd find out that games workshop was nothing but interested in justifying themselves.
Knight of the Lady
Posts: 97
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:04 am

Fri Oct 04, 2019 1:35 am

Hyarion wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 12:59 pm
Without knowing what you plan to put in the 'Ugly' category, I would also put the whole Malekith fiasco in this category as well.

Malekith attempts to become the new Phoenix King, gets rejected in the Flame of Asuryan, and then leaves with his followers to go become the Dark Elves.
In the End Times, Asuryan appears to him and tells Malekith that it was all preparation for this moment, that Malekith is the rightful Phoenix King, and it was all one big character test/preparation for this moment to become the leader of a re-united Elven race.
I may get some flak for this, but I actually like the basic concept of Malekith being the rightful Phoenix King and in the end taking the throne over the elves. Now, alot of the details were pretty messed up or really bad, but I do like the basic idea of this. It makes it seem more messy, and in my opinion Warhammer-y and grimdark, and not as much of epic fantasy "evil guys in black armour vs good guys in white armour" kind of story.
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Jackdays
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Fri Oct 04, 2019 4:41 am

Is the "High Magic" going to be in the "Ugly" topic ?

During The End Times the magic starts to become much more powerful. This is partly explained by the destruction of Vortex. But, Vortex is destroyed after the rising of the Wall (Auric Bastion) and the Domes (the Wall of Fate & the Wall of Bones) and the Darkness covering Sylvania.

Toby Pilling wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 12:16 pm
1. Endless Quest Items - to raise Nagash from the dead you require his three magic staffs. Oh, make sure you get hold of his magic crown and his withered hand. Err... I think you also need his magic armour. Ah , I almost forgot - you'll also need his nine magic tomes. Got that?

2. A Terrible Plan - Manfred's plan is the dumbest plan for an arch-baddie in any fiction I've ever read. It's doomed to fail and doesn't even make any sense when he does finally disclose it. Why are the vampires of the world following him and his disastrously inept plan? Who knows.

3. Retcons - not only is the Storm of Chaos wiped from the annals of history, but the effectiveness of entire factions are effectively changed. Somehow the Skaven go from being eternally doomed to squabble internally in comic disunity, to toppling entire countries in weeks if not days - Tilea and Estalia are just wiped out by the ratmen. Gosh - who knew it was so easy? If they are dominant though, then all must bow to the undead - Manfred and chums crush every army they face, that I count to be at least seven (Bretonnians, Beastmen, Dwarves, Empire, Skaven, Wood Elves and High Elves). What does Manfred need to raise Nagash when his forces can conquer the world without him? It doesn't make any sense.
1) I think rising something like Nagash should be pretty endless or impossible quest. Otherwise his followers would have done (or tried) this dozens of times for past milleniums. Maybe they even have.

2) nothing to comment here. Some plots are little strange in the story.

3) Skaven Invasion is something that goes on through entire tET series. Truth is, that they seem to cause most of the destruction of this apocalyptic event around the world. Even if we do not count their unstable society/nature, that would pretty quickly collapse from inside out, this is just too much 8-) Their population is suddenly like billions. They can pretty easily invade (and actually take down) most of the Old World, including Dwarfen Realms, and then Lustria, Ind, Cathay (was Araby also mentioned)... And then they finally destroy the Morrslieb.
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