The two views of Bretonnia

[Iltherion]

I understand that there has been some tension regarding Bretonnia as described in the 1st edition of WFRP and as described in subsequent editions. My understanding is that while not much was said about Bretonnia in 1e, it was reminiscent of 18th-century France.

Subsequent editions, of course, incorporated the "Arthurian" themes from the 5th and following editions of WFB.

Has any attempt been made to reconcile the two ideas? I should think that there is plenty of room in Bretonnia for both.

To me, the Arthurian themes make sense in light of Bretonnia's proximity to Athel Loren, and the lack of a natural barrier between the two (unlike the rest of Bretonnia's neighbors, bordered by mountains to the northeast and the south). Of course the Wood Elves are not very closely related to the High Elves, but they probably haven't completely forgotten their equivalents to King Arthur (Aenarion the Defender), Merlin (Caledor Dragontamer), Excalibur (the Sword of Khaine), Morgan le Fay (Morathi), and Mordred (Malekith) either.

However, that makes more sense for the eastern provinces, closer to Athel Loren. The coastal regions would probably engage in more commerce with the Empire and Marienburg, and perhaps those regions would have more Imperial than elven influence. That might give the western provinces something closer to the French Revolution than to King Arthur.

Does it make sense to play Bretonnia this way, more 18-century near the sea to the west and more Arthurian near the forest to the east?

[Zisse]

I am no expert on Bretonia, but the tension between the two ways could lead to interesting scenarios.
You might have children of Arthurian nobles that aren't allowed to go to the Versailles like court in the capital. They could do any mischief.
Another thing might be agitators for a revolution that try to agitate a village in the eastern country side....

[Theo]

There have been some various stabs at this from various fans, though I don't think much has been publicized.

My own version of Bretonnia (which my PCs are currently adventuring in) has some elements of both. In general, it's Renaissance in feel and most of Bretonnia is - very loosely - based on late 16th-century France with some earlier and later elements. Most of the formerly semi-independent feudal duchies have over the centuries been absorbed into the royal domain, but regional governors still wield a lot of power. The main exception is the southeastern duchy of Louenne/Quenelles, which remains feudal and independent (and late-medieval in stylings), partly due to its alliance with the black-eyed Fae of the hellforest of Loren. Here, the weird heretical grail cult, mostly extinct in "modern" Bretonnia (although Notre Dame du Lac, Our Lady of the Lake, is still identified with Bretonnia's patron saint) is still strong.

Still working on that.

[hallucyon]

There have been some various stabs at this from various fans, though I don't think much has been publicized.

There is "The Corrupt Kingdom of Bretonnia", an excellent fan sourcebook for the first-edition WFRP. As it was published in early days of the Internet era, it was released in increments, so you need to download a bunch of small PDF files.

[Theo]

There have been some various stabs at this from various fans, though I don't think much has been publicized.

There is "The Corrupt Kingdom of Bretonnia", an excellent fan sourcebook for the first-edition WFRP. As it was published in early days of the Internet era, it was released in increments, so you need to download a bunch of small PDF files.

I know. I meant specifically work combining elements of that late-Renaissance vision of Bretonnia with elements of the medieval-style Bretonnia of later Warhammer.

[Orin J.]

i've honestly never had any trouble with combining the two. the "noble bretonnia" and the "corrupt bretonnia" fold together very nicely once you look at where they come from. Yhe noble bretonnia is the domain of chivalry, young, idealistic knights test themselves to prove their honor to the lady, eventually rise up to the privlidge of the grail, and take their place among the highest authorities in the land, experts in matters relating to warfare and noble honor who wed equally idealistic ladies who seek the romantic life of a lady in waiting. The corrupt bretonnia is the domain of nobles that fail or grow up too weak of frame or character to be accepted into knighthood, trapped languishing in the position of land-holder, abusing the laws held over the peasentry to indulge in noble vices like drink, debauchery, and good ol' cruelty towards the unfortunate. they wed some jaded, disaffected noblewoman and raise their kids to the ideals of chivalry out of both the self-serving hope their son will become a knight that brings fame (and riches) home and the sense of nobility that protects their position.

With the knights focused on matters of war and peace-keeping and the debached handling matters of taxation and land rights, neither really suffers the other's contempt or direct awareness. they're probably very congenial in their interactions normally. y'know, until some wandering go-gooders stumble into the duchy and throw the whole matter at the feet of the grail knights.

[Knight of the Lady]

There have been some various stabs at this from various fans, though I don't think much has been publicized.

There is "The Corrupt Kingdom of Bretonnia", an excellent fan sourcebook for the first-edition WFRP. As it was published in early days of the Internet era, it was released in increments, so you need to download a bunch of small PDF files.

This sounds very interesting. I'll have to check around for this one.

To add something to the topic...

I know that when I GMed back in the day I ran Bretonnia with alot of GRRM and Westeros style flavor for the nobles with a constant unstable kingdom that's one percieved insult away from total civil war from an endless mix of power plays, arrogance and ancestral feuds, along with incompetence, regionalism etc.

But I also recall there was a short discussion about Bretonnia from a pseudo-Napoleonic perspective with a neglient class of nobles with their heads in the sky about glorious foreign conquest and domestic neglect.

[Capitaneus Fractus]

Has any attempt been made to reconcile the two ideas? I should think that there is plenty of room in Bretonnia for both.

I had, a long time ago, at the time of WFB6 and in the earliest times of WFRP2, but I think that all I did was undoubtedly mostly lost.

There was, in fact, three official Bretonniæ (I say it out of my mind, while I have a bit forgotten the elements), in fact:
The one described in WFRP1 and in WFB3 core books, corresponds to a very corrupted vision the French Grand Siècle (circa the 17th and 18th centuries).
The one described in WFB3's expansions corresponds to the very late French Mediæval Era (circa the 14th and 15th centuries).
The one described in WFB5 and in latter publications correspond to the classical French Mediæval Era (circa the 12th and 13th centuries).

My main reconciliation idea was to depart from WFRP1's and WFB5's historical reference, and going back to references closer to WFB3's expansions. The idea that a 18th century's or a 13th century's territory would border a 16th century's one, the Empire, always appeared to be ridiculously stupid to me, even as a teenager. I don't understand how adult could had produced this... Anyway... the Era which is characteristic of the spirit of Warhammer is the early 16th Century, from the AD 1490s (at the time of the Battle of the Maisontaal) to the AD 1520s (at the time of the Storm of Chaos). Warhammer is not mediæval fantasy, but is renaissance fantasy.

So, Bretonnia shall be, in my opinion, also renaissance fantasy. I had came to the conclusion that one of the good rules from whom to take inspiration the very last Valois' in France and of the very last Plantegenêts' in England (up to the Tudors, excluded). Court intrigues such as the one under the rule of Francis the Second of France might be inspiring.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_II_of_France

The king, le roy, Charles de la Tête d'Or, "who is the least caring of an uncaring elite, living in the great royal palace at Oisillon one hundred miles northwest of Gisoreux, surrounded by favourites, sycophants and countless servants" might be enriched by things inspired from characters such Lewis the Eleventh.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_XI

The king Louen Leoncœur, seen as a more knight-king, might rather be enriched by things inspired from characters such as Francis the First and the Second of France or Richard the Second of England.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_I_of_France
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_II_of_England

As for having Louen crowned in 2500 I.C. but not king between 2502 IC. and 2515 IC, it might simply be ignored, or might be explained by a conflict similar to the Hundred Years Wars (which was a conflict between two French families, one of it holding lands in England, for the crown of France, contrary to the nationalistic teaching which makes it being a war between England and France) and to the War of the Roses. From AD 1431 to AD 1453, there was, after all, two crowned kings of France: Henry of Lancaster and Charles of Valois, so having two simultaneous kings is perfectly possible. In a less conflictual situation, it was also an use, in Mediæval Era, when the primogeniture wasn't perfectly established, for a king to crown king his elder son while still alive. There was, then, two kings: the father and the son...

What is interesting in the Earliest Modern Era, is that it is a time were mediæval knighthood still matters, socially, socially and militarily, so many aspects of WFB5-8's Bretonnia, including full plate armours, can be borrowed, while the modern era, the state building and the class of civil servants was birthing, so many aspects of WFRP1's Bretonnia can be borrowed too.

For example, the description from WFRP1's and WFB3's core books might apply to the Urban Bretonnia, to its bourgeoisies (the non-noble wealthy and the middle classes: typically merchants, investors, and professionals such as doctors and lawyers and the dwellers in the small burgs) and to its noblesse de cloche (mayors and aldermen of certain cities under royal charter who are considered gentry) et de robe (the magisterial class that administered royal justice and civil government who earned a title of nobility through generations of long periods of public service, such as bureaucrats and civil servants or who bought it, such as rich merchants).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobles_of_the_Robe

While the description from WFB5 to WFB8's and from WFRP2's books might rather apply to the Rural Bretonnia, to its peasantry, serfs et vilains, and to its noblesse d'épée (the hereditary gentry and nobility who originally had to perform military service in exchange for their titles).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobles_of_the_Sword

To keep Warhammer's grimness, the Bretonnian noblesse of the sword might be stained by the corruption of a small but significant share of its members -without necessarily realising it- within cults of mysteries of aspects of Khorne (taking inspiration from the mysteries of Mithra), while the noblesse of the gown would rather tend to be stained by cults of mysteries of aspects of Slaanesh.

The fleur de lys is a common symbol in Bretonnia, which, in the Warhammer World, might be a reference to the cult of Ishernos, which might had kept some importance in Bretonnia. There are also the important cult of Shallya, which mirrors the importance of the marial cult in France (the blue colour of France and the fleur de lys is a reference to Mary, as can be read in Pastoureau's Le Roi tué par un cochon: https://booksandideas.net/The-Blue-and-the-Pink ).
Then, there are elements of the cult of the Lady as an Eltharin cult. I remember that it was something that I designed before official publications decided to present it as something explicit . In Pour la gloire d'Ulric, the royal court and ministers of the king were infiltrated by cultists of the Horned Rat.

Schematically, if the Empire is a human realm influenced by dwarrows, Bretonnia can be a human realm influenced by elves.

I'll try to look if I might find some elements of what I've summarized... (but I doubt it, it was mainly published in a forum that, alas, no longer exists).

[Capitaneus Fractus]

Confer https://theenemywithinremixed.wordpress ... bretonnia/

[Jadrax]

in fact:
The one described in WFRP1 and in WFB3 core books, corresponds to a very corrupted vision the French Grand Siècle (circa the 17th and 18th centuries).
The one described in WFB3's expansions corresponds to the very late French Mediæval Era (circa the 14th and 15th centuries).

I think this is the origin of the problem, the description of Bretonnia between WFB:3rd edition and its own supplement Warhammer Armies are not that close at all.

For those interested, in 1st and 2nd editions, Bretonnia lacked any separate identity. Although in WFB:2nd edition we do have "The north of the Old World is technically and socially primitive (1l-13th century europe), whilst the central areas are slightly more sophisticated (l3th-15th century europe) and the the south is the most advanced (IS-16th century europe)."

[Knight of the Lady]

in fact:
The one described in WFRP1 and in WFB3 core books, corresponds to a very corrupted vision the French Grand Siècle (circa the 17th and 18th centuries).
The one described in WFB3's expansions corresponds to the very late French Mediæval Era (circa the 14th and 15th centuries).

I think this is the origin of the problem, the description of Bretonnia between WFB:3rd edition and its own supplement Warhammer Armies are not that close at all.

For those interested, in 1st and 2nd editions, Bretonnia lacked any separate identity. Although in WFB:2nd edition we do have "The north of the Old World is technically and socially primitive (1l-13th century europe), whilst the central areas are slightly more sophisticated (l3th-15th century europe) and the the south is the most advanced (IS-16th century europe)."

Very interesting information. I guess Bretonnia would be positioned among the central areas. Its north of Estalia and Tilea but south of the northern parts of the Empire.

It would put Kislev in an odd spot since I get a 16th century feel rather than a medieval feel from them.

[Capitaneus Fractus]

I think I've already recommanded it: Robert Merles's Fortune de France is an interesting novel to inspire an Early Modern Bretonnia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortune_de_France

A TV adaptation was made:
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt27644193/