The two views of Bretonnia

[Iltherion]

I understand that there has been some tension regarding Bretonnia as described in the 1st edition of WFRP and as described in subsequent editions. My understanding is that while not much was said about Bretonnia in 1e, it was reminiscent of 18th-century France.

Subsequent editions, of course, incorporated the "Arthurian" themes from the 5th and following editions of WFB.

Has any attempt been made to reconcile the two ideas? I should think that there is plenty of room in Bretonnia for both.

To me, the Arthurian themes make sense in light of Bretonnia's proximity to Athel Loren, and the lack of a natural barrier between the two (unlike the rest of Bretonnia's neighbors, bordered by mountains to the northeast and the south). Of course the Wood Elves are not very closely related to the High Elves, but they probably haven't completely forgotten their equivalents to King Arthur (Aenarion the Defender), Merlin (Caledor Dragontamer), Excalibur (the Sword of Khaine), Morgan le Fay (Morathi), and Mordred (Malekith) either.

However, that makes more sense for the eastern provinces, closer to Athel Loren. The coastal regions would probably engage in more commerce with the Empire and Marienburg, and perhaps those regions would have more Imperial than elven influence. That might give the western provinces something closer to the French Revolution than to King Arthur.

Does it make sense to play Bretonnia this way, more 18-century near the sea to the west and more Arthurian near the forest to the east?

[Zisse]

I am no expert on Bretonia, but the tension between the two ways could lead to interesting scenarios.
You might have children of Arthurian nobles that aren't allowed to go to the Versailles like court in the capital. They could do any mischief.
Another thing might be agitators for a revolution that try to agitate a village in the eastern country side....

[Theo]

There have been some various stabs at this from various fans, though I don't think much has been publicized.

My own version of Bretonnia (which my PCs are currently adventuring in) has some elements of both. In general, it's Renaissance in feel and most of Bretonnia is - very loosely - based on late 16th-century France with some earlier and later elements. Most of the formerly semi-independent feudal duchies have over the centuries been absorbed into the royal domain, but regional governors still wield a lot of power. The main exception is the southeastern duchy of Louenne/Quenelles, which remains feudal and independent (and late-medieval in stylings), partly due to its alliance with the black-eyed Fae of the hellforest of Loren. Here, the weird heretical grail cult, mostly extinct in "modern" Bretonnia (although Notre Dame du Lac, Our Lady of the Lake, is still identified with Bretonnia's patron saint) is still strong.

Still working on that.

[hallucyon]

There have been some various stabs at this from various fans, though I don't think much has been publicized.

There is "The Corrupt Kingdom of Bretonnia", an excellent fan sourcebook for the first-edition WFRP. As it was published in early days of the Internet era, it was released in increments, so you need to download a bunch of small PDF files.

[Theo]

There have been some various stabs at this from various fans, though I don't think much has been publicized.

There is "The Corrupt Kingdom of Bretonnia", an excellent fan sourcebook for the first-edition WFRP. As it was published in early days of the Internet era, it was released in increments, so you need to download a bunch of small PDF files.

I know. I meant specifically work combining elements of that late-Renaissance vision of Bretonnia with elements of the medieval-style Bretonnia of later Warhammer.

[Orin J.]

i've honestly never had any trouble with combining the two. the "noble bretonnia" and the "corrupt bretonnia" fold together very nicely once you look at where they come from. Yhe noble bretonnia is the domain of chivalry, young, idealistic knights test themselves to prove their honor to the lady, eventually rise up to the privlidge of the grail, and take their place among the highest authorities in the land, experts in matters relating to warfare and noble honor who wed equally idealistic ladies who seek the romantic life of a lady in waiting. The corrupt bretonnia is the domain of nobles that fail or grow up too weak of frame or character to be accepted into knighthood, trapped languishing in the position of land-holder, abusing the laws held over the peasentry to indulge in noble vices like drink, debauchery, and good ol' cruelty towards the unfortunate. they wed some jaded, disaffected noblewoman and raise their kids to the ideals of chivalry out of both the self-serving hope their son will become a knight that brings fame (and riches) home and the sense of nobility that protects their position.

With the knights focused on matters of war and peace-keeping and the debached handling matters of taxation and land rights, neither really suffers the other's contempt or direct awareness. they're probably very congenial in their interactions normally. y'know, until some wandering go-gooders stumble into the duchy and throw the whole matter at the feet of the grail knights.

[Knight of the Lady]

There have been some various stabs at this from various fans, though I don't think much has been publicized.

There is "The Corrupt Kingdom of Bretonnia", an excellent fan sourcebook for the first-edition WFRP. As it was published in early days of the Internet era, it was released in increments, so you need to download a bunch of small PDF files.

This sounds very interesting. I'll have to check around for this one.

To add something to the topic...

I know that when I GMed back in the day I ran Bretonnia with alot of GRRM and Westeros style flavor for the nobles with a constant unstable kingdom that's one percieved insult away from total civil war from an endless mix of power plays, arrogance and ancestral feuds, along with incompetence, regionalism etc.

But I also recall there was a short discussion about Bretonnia from a pseudo-Napoleonic perspective with a neglient class of nobles with their heads in the sky about glorious foreign conquest and domestic neglect.

[Capitaneus Fractus]

Has any attempt been made to reconcile the two ideas? I should think that there is plenty of room in Bretonnia for both.

I had, a long time ago, at the time of WFB6 and in the earliest times of WFRP2, but I think that all I did was undoubtedly mostly lost.

There was, in fact, three official Bretonniæ (I say it out of my mind, while I have a bit forgotten the elements), in fact:
The one described in WFRP1 and in WFB3 core books, corresponds to a very corrupted vision the French Grand Siècle (circa the 17th and 18th centuries).
The one described in WFB3's expansions corresponds to the very late French Mediæval Era (circa the 14th and 15th centuries).
The one described in WFB5 and in latter publications correspond to the classical French Mediæval Era (circa the 12th and 13th centuries).

My main reconciliation idea was to depart from WFRP1's and WFB5's historical reference, and going back to references closer to WFB3's expansions. The idea that a 18th century's or a 13th century's territory would border a 16th century's one, the Empire, always appeared to be ridiculously stupid to me, even as a teenager. I don't understand how adult could had produced this... Anyway... the Era which is characteristic of the spirit of Warhammer is the early 16th Century. Warhammer is not mediæval fantasy, but is renaissance fantasy.

So, Bretonnia shall be, in my opinion, also renaissance fantasy. I had came to the conclusion that one of the good rules from whom to take inspiration was mainly the ones of Lewis the Eleventh and of Francis the Second, while enriching it with aspects of the rule of other Valois.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_XI
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_II_of_France

What is interesting in the Earliest Modern Era, is that it is a time were mediæval knighthood still matters, socially, socially and militarily, so many aspects of WFB5-8's Bretonnia can be borrowed, while the modern era, the state building and the class of civil servants was birthing, so many aspects of WFRP1's Bretonnia can be borrowed too.

For example, the description from WFRP1's and WFB3's core books might apply to the Urban Bretonnia, to its bourgeoisies (the non-noble wealthy and the middle classes: typically merchants, investors, and professionals such as doctors and lawyers and the dwellers in the small burgs) and to its noblesse de cloche (mayors and aldermen of certain cities under royal charter who are considered gentry) et de robe (the magisterial class that administered royal justice and civil government who earned a title of nobility through generations of long periods of public service, such as bureaucrats and civil servants or who bought it, such as rich merchants).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobles_of_the_Robe

While the description from WFB5 to WFB8's and from WFRP2's books might rather apply to the Rural Bretonnia, to its peasantry, serfs et vilains, and to its noblesse d'épée (the hereditary gentry and nobility who originally had to perform military service in exchange for their titles).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobles_of_the_Sword

To keep Warhammer's grimness, the Bretonnian noblesse of the sword might be stained by the corruption of a small but significant share of its members -without necessarily realising it- within cults of mysteries of aspects of Khorne (taking inspiration from the mysteries of Mithra), while the noblesse of the gown would rather tend to be stained by cults of mysteries of aspects of Slaanesh.

The fleur de lys is a common symbol in Bretonnia, which, in the Warhammer World, might be a reference to the cult of Ishernos, which might had kept some importance in Bretonnia. There are also the important cult of Shallya, which mirrors the importance of the marial cult in France (the blue colour of France and the fleur de lys is a reference to Mary, as can be read in Pastoureau's Le Roi tué par un cochon: https://booksandideas.net/The-Blue-and-the-Pink ).
Then, there are elements of the cult of the Lady as an Eltharin cult. I remember that it was something that I designed before official publications decided to present it as something explicit . In Pour la gloire d'Ulric, the royal court and ministers of the king were infiltrated by cultists of the Horned Rat.

Schematically, if the Empire is a human realm influenced by dwarrows, Bretonnia can be a human realm influenced by elves.

I'll try to look if I might find some elements of what I've summarized... (but I doubt it, it was mainly published in a forum that, alas, no longer exists).