How double does the double need to be?

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Totsuzenheni Yukimi
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SPOILERS for The Enemy Within campaign.

Forgive me if this has come up before, but i can't recall a discussion regarding this particular issue, for all the discussion on the wider topic.

A plot device in The Enemy Within campaign's Mistaken Identity is that one of the PCs is a double for Kastor Lieberung. I don't have Mistaken Identity with me at the time of writing this so i can't refer to the wording itself, but in any case i think many of us have taken this to mean that the PC is an exact, uncanny, and somewhat implausible double for Kastor, but need this be the case? How much like Kastor does the PC need to look in order to be mistaken for Kastor and for the plot to develop throughout the rest of The Enemy Within campaign (in so far as it can and does) upon the basis that the PC is mistaken for Kastor?

I'm thinking that the PC doesn't need to look exactly like Kastor, and may even only need bear a passing resemblance to Kastor. I think that those looking for Kastor (by which i mean those literally, physically searching for Kastor rather than those simply wishing to find Kastor and commanding others to do so) would not have met Kastor before and that if they know Kastor at all they would know him through correspondence. This correspondence would either be with Kastor or with Kastor's associates. I think it's more likely that those looking for Kastor would not know Kastor. I think those looking for Kastor would be identifying Kastor on the basis of a combination of a description of Kastor's physical appearance, which would include Kastor's looks, demeanour, attire, baggage and equipment; Kastor's companions; Kastor's expected location, based on recent rumours; and, of course, by way of confirmation, Kastor's response to coded hand signals. Of these i think that those looking for Kastor would be identifying Kastor as much by Kastor's attire, including Kastor's clothing and jewellery, and by Kastor's baggage and equipment, as they would by Kastor's looks. To some extent i think Kastor's clothing, baggage and equipment would have been described to those looking for Kastor, but that to some extent these things, along with Kastor's looks, would also be implied (in terms of quality, fashion, and level of maintenance). As such i think if i were to run The Enemy Within again i would do so on the basis that one of the PCs looks enough like Kastor to be mistaken for Kastor 'in silhouette', or upon passing, or from description, or even, by those that know Kastor, for a relation of Kastor's. I think this would make the plot device much more palatable, give the PCs a little room for manoeuvre (enough to play with at least) when it comes to how recognisable as Kastor they want the lookalike PC to be, and give the GM some leeway as to why NPCs who might be expected to recognise the lookalike PC as Kastor do or don't do so.
Last edited by Totsuzenheni Yukimi on Sat Jul 25, 2020 8:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Orin J.
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I think you made an assumption and ran with it myself. i always assumed they were running off a very "adult male, average to fit build" kind of description and the PC gets pegged by it mostly for saying/doing something that "tips off" those searching for Kastor they've found him.

then again, i always like using chaos cults as comedy relief to an extent so i tend to play them as MUCH less competent than most of the community.
Herr Arnulfe
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After the first Kastor-spotting by the Purple Hand, the cultists have "seen him" firsthand, so any subsequent descriptions that are shared between cultists would actually be descriptions of the PC.
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Totsuzenheni Yukimi
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Orin J. wrote: Sat Jul 25, 2020 7:46 am I think you made an assumption and ran with it myself.
I certainly did at some point in my recollection of Mistaken Identity. I'm not alone in making that assumption. I've seen it come up a few times recently and i've pointed out that to others that Kastor and the PC might not need to be exact doubles. Nonetheless i'm interested in how others have played it.
FasterThanJesus
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It's not a doppleganger level likeness but a little uncanny. The mistaken identity is then based off descriptions and sketched drawings coinciding with being where Kastor was supposed to be at a particular time.

In Death on the Reik, the PC may even become magically and non-magically tagged.
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Totsuzenheni Yukimi
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I have my first edition copy of Mistaken Identity with me now. It's in the Hogshead edition of Shadows Over Bogenhafen. To quote from p. 49: "Turning the corpse over the adventurers are in for a shock, because [Kastor Lieberung] looks exactly like one of them!" (The emphasis in italics is mine.) I just checked my PDF of the fourth edition Enemy In Shadows and the wording, this time on p. 26, is the same. It seems my memory serves and that there is a firm basis upon which many a GM has assumed that a PC needs to look exactly like Kastor.
Herr Arnulfe
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totsuzenheni wrote: Sat Jul 25, 2020 1:06 pmI have my first edition copy of Mistaken Identity with me now. It's in the Hogshead edition of Shadows Over Bogenhafen. To quote from p. 49: "Turning the corpse over the adventurers are in for a shock, because [Kastor Lieberung] looks exactly like one of them!" (The emphasis in italics is mine.) I just checked my PDF of the fourth edition Enemy In Shadows and the wording, this time on p. 26, is the same. It seems my memory serves and that there is a firm basis upon which many a GM has assumed that a PC needs to look exactly like Kastor.
I suspect that was done to grab the players' attention and build a sense of mystery early on, when there isn't yet much plot to be had.
Herr Arnulfe
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And of course, the inheritance letter is a juicier plot hook if the player believes he can pass himself off convincingly.
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Totsuzenheni Yukimi
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Herr Arnulfe wrote: Sat Jul 25, 2020 2:19 pm And of course, the inheritance letter is a juicier plot hook if the player believes he can pass himself off convincingly.
... to people who will never have met nor otherwise seen Kastor?
Herr Arnulfe
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totsuzenheni wrote: Sat Jul 25, 2020 3:57 pm ... to people who will never have met nor otherwise seen Kastor?
I don't believe the player knows that at the time.
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Totsuzenheni Yukimi
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Herr Arnulfe wrote: Sat Jul 25, 2020 4:36 pm
totsuzenheni wrote: Sat Jul 25, 2020 3:57 pm ... to people who will never have met nor otherwise seen Kastor?
I don't believe the player knows that at the time.
It's fairly obvious from the handout of the lawyers' letter that the lawyers wouldn't have met or otherwise seen Kastor because it explains that they have found Kastor only after "many lengthy researches" and that Kastor would have to "produce an affidavit of your identity", which Kastor has on his person when the PCs find Kastor and which is another handout. This is all quite apart from the fact that Kastor is having to make a long journey to get to Bogenhafen where the lawyers are in order to claim the inheritance.
FasterThanJesus
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Having just read through DotR, I'm pretty sure it implies, or even states, a close likeness and not a complete doppleganger. However, I have a memory like a seive due to a combination of alcohol and middle age, so may have misread. I'll see if I can spot it again.
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Totsuzenheni Yukimi
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FasterThanJesus wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 3:13 pm Having just read through DotR, I'm pretty sure it implies, or even states, a close likeness and not a complete doppleganger. However, I have a memory like a seive due to a combination of alcohol and middle age, so may have misread. I'll see if I can spot it again.
I took a look at The Cult Of The Purple Hand section in the Hogshead edition of DotR, pp. 6 - 8. Here are all the references to the PC that looks like Kastor:

"one of the PCs is Lieberung's physical double" p. 6
"the PC that resembles [Lieberung]" p. 6
"Lieberung's double" p. 6
"the character who resembles Lieberung" p. 6
"Lieberung's double" p .6
"Lieberung's double" p. 7
"Lieberung's double" p. 8
"Lieberung's double" p. 8

This doesn't change the way in which this is was set up in Mistaken Identity but none-the-less it is, collectively, more vague about how much like Kastor the PC looks.

There is also a section on p. 58 of the Enemy In Shadows Companion entitled 'The Shadow Cast Never A Member' about possibly using one of the NPCs as someone who has "met 'Kastor Lieberung' before". The "discerning charlatan will soon realise that the lookalike is not Lieberung". This implies that this PC looks enough like Kastor for someone who has met him before to think that the PC is Lieberung and enough like Kastor to need to 'discern' that the PC is not Kastor by means other than how the PC looks.

I searched the PDF of the Enemy In Shadows Companion for the words 'PC', 'Lieberung', 'look', 'double', and 'resemble' and i found one other reference to the PC looking like Kastor:

"the picture on the 'Wanted!' notice [of Kastor] did indeed look exactly like the Character" p. 43
FasterThanJesus
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totsuzenheni wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 5:12 pm
This doesn't change the way in which this is was set up in Mistaken Identity but none-the-less it is, collectively, more vague about how much like Kastor the PC looks.
It could be that my mental stack just has the most recent stuff (from DotR read through in it), so I'll quote mine DotR if you've not read it yet. BTW, apart from stupid mistakes that I've flagged up with the error reporter, and them not taking into inflation into account (also flagged), I still think it's an awesome adventure!
  • "One of the adventurers, who bears an uncanny
    resemblance to Lieberung, found his body and some
    crucial documents, then went to Bögenhafen in his place." p6
  • "If the Lieberung-double adventurer has been killed, the cult
    will still be looking for the adventurers in the mistaken belief
    that they are agents of a rival cult" p6
  • "Under cover
    of an innocent-sounding sales patter, these two try to exchange
    secret signs with Lieberung’s double among the adventurers. If
    ‘Lieberung’ is dead, the pedlars will try to use secret signs to
    determine the cult loyalties of the other adventurers.". p13
  • "Shortly before the party leaves Kemperbad for Grissenwald,
    Lieberung’s double" p34
There's actually another half a dozen references to Lieberung's double, but I can't be bothered copying the lot and having to claim fair use or anything.

Obviously the 'uncanny' stuck in my memory. However 'Lieberung's double' has become a placeholder name. If this was an Elder Scrolls game that'd be the catchy name you'd go by to avoid having tricky text replacement.
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Totsuzenheni Yukimi
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FasterThanJesus wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 5:29 pm I'll quote mine DotR if you've not read it yet. BTW, apart from stupid mistakes that I've flagged up with the error reporter, and them not taking into inflation into account (also flagged), I still think it's an awesome adventure!
I take it this is Cubicle 7's edition? Has much changed in Cubicle 7's edtion do you think? Incidentally, there was a entire paragraph repeated in the Hogshead edtion in that section on the Purple Hand.
FasterThanJesus
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totsuzenheni wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 2:59 am I take it this is Cubicle 7's edition? Has much changed in Cubicle 7's edtion do you think? Incidentally, there was a entire paragraph repeated in the Hogshead edtion in that section on the Purple Hand.
Yep, Cubicle 7's.

Overall very little has changed. The adventure layout, mentioned in the other thread on the topic, is different and IMO a big improvement. For example, the signal tower appears in the text before the barren hills section as opposed to the other way around. The trainers, most notably the wizard, is now added as appendix item to be used ag GM's discretion/need. The first half of Carrion up the Reik follows directly from the destruction of Castle Wittgenstein. There are parts that are verbatim copies, the money/treasure being one I've already mentioned. I actually think that was a little lazy, but I'm wondering if the thinking is that it's not too relevant as the GM can toast most of it in CutR. Like EiS, there are a quite a few Grognard boxes with alternative approaches to handling some sections, which is really where most of the new content comes in.

My main gripe, along with EiS, is that there isn't enough guidance on where things are going later on in the campaign. I had intended to start a thread where could guess, or extrapolate, what's going to be in The Horned Rat and Empire in Chaos, but there's still little to go on. The Horned Rat takes place in the Grey Mountains and apparently it's events could leave The Empire in disarray (this being an option for handling players who absolutely insist being river traders for the rest of their days), but I've gleaned little else.
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Totsuzenheni Yukimi
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I'll copy and paste this bit of the discussion over to that thread, here: http://windsofchaos.com/forum/viewtopic ... 3678#p3678 .
Theo
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In a world without photographs, people don't need to look particularly identical to be easily mistaken for one another. That said, I'd say it all depends on what you're going to do with the plot. (I'm not expecting the new version to give us anything juicier than the original on Kastor Lieberung.)

In my run, Esther Lieberung and the look-alike are in fact half-sisters. They looked very similar, enough to easily mistake one for the other, but not identical. The PCs have only recently found out about their supposed father, and have begun speculating whether there are any more uncannily similar half-siblings about. Which there just might be...
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