WFRP Social Justice & Representation

For general discussions about WFRP
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Theo
Posts: 150
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 3:25 pm

Robin wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 2:38 pm
FasterThanJesus wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 1:06 pm
Robin wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 2:53 am

To be fair to RPG.net, they'd object to that too! They're very even-handed on this sort of thing.
From my experience, RGP.net objects to anything that isn't overwhelming enthusiastic support.

CapnZap getting banned from criticizing WFRP v4 for example.
As I recall, his various bans and warnings bans resulted from a variety of infractions, not just his feelings about WFRP4.

Plenty of stuff gets criticised on RPG.net, but they do object to edition warring and unrelenting, unproductive negativity. I can understand why - in the latter days of StS the WFRP4 section became tedious beyond belief with the endless criticism.

Regards,

Robin
Quite. While there has been a few strange moderating decisions over the years, in general it's by far and away the best general RPG forum available. (In no small degree, of course, thanks to their zero-tolerance policy on racists and other bigots.)
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Toby Pilling
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Herr Arnulfe wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 9:00 am
Only Toby can say what his intent was. I'm all for poking fun at political positions of all stripes, as long as you're not by extension supporting political positions that are based on hurting or killing people.
I can confirm that I am against hurting or killing people. Err...unless perhaps they are trying to hurt or kill me.
Herr Arnulfe
Posts: 134
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Toby Pilling wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 2:53 pm
I can confirm that I am against hurting or killing people. Err...unless perhaps they are trying to hurt or kill me.
Thanks for confirming my assumption that your cult of Tzeentchian mask-wearing healthcare workers was meant as a ridiculously ironic take on Trumpism. :)
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Orin J.
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Robin wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 2:38 pm
FasterThanJesus wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 1:06 pm
Robin wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 2:53 am

To be fair to RPG.net, they'd object to that too! They're very even-handed on this sort of thing.
From my experience, RGP.net objects to anything that isn't overwhelming enthusiastic support.

CapnZap getting banned from criticizing WFRP v4 for example.
As I recall, his various bans and warnings bans resulted from a variety of infractions, not just his feelings about WFRP4.

Plenty of stuff gets criticised on RPG.net, but they do object to edition warring and unrelenting, unproductive negativity. I can understand why - in the latter days of StS the WFRP4 section became tedious beyond belief with the endless criticism.

Regards,

Robin
this sounds about right. good head for rules systems, but the guy can be insufferable when he's found a good windmill to tilt at.
FasterThanJesus
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Location: UK

Robin wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 2:38 pm

As I recall, his various bans and warnings bans resulted from a variety of infractions, not just his feelings about WFRP4.

Plenty of stuff gets criticised on RPG.net, but they do object to edition warring and unrelenting, unproductive negativity. I can understand why - in the latter days of StS the WFRP4 section became tedious beyond belief with the endless criticism.

Regards,

Robin
Fair enough, I can only comment on what I saw. Perhaps there was a lot of iceburg under the waterline.
BestialWarlust
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Joined: Thu May 14, 2020 7:06 am

Honestly it can die in hellfire. I want my RPG games to be free of real world politics do what you want at your table but for publishers that want my money keep it fictional. If you want your game product to be some passive aggressive messaging and preaching I'll just pass your product up. I play these games for fun and someone trying to preach and cram their person views down my throat are not what I want in a game. Too much of this non sense has leaked into hobbies over the years and its tiresome. The fallacy that these games a were never "inclusive" is just non sense it's not the RPG systems it's the individual groups.
Herr Arnulfe
Posts: 134
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:06 am

BestialWarlust wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:07 pm
Honestly it can die in hellfire. I want my RPG games to be free of real world politics do what you want at your table but for publishers that want my money keep it fictional. If you want your game product to be some passive aggressive messaging and preaching I'll just pass your product up. I play these games for fun and someone trying to preach and cram their person views down my throat are not what I want in a game. Too much of this non sense has leaked into hobbies over the years and its tiresome. The fallacy that these games a were never "inclusive" is just non sense it's not the RPG systems it's the individual groups.
I'm not aware of any RPG products pushing political agendas. Which ones do you have in mind? AFAIK it's about making games more inclusive and relevant which I think we can agree are worthwhile goals. I suppose most games (including WFRP) assume the players are fighting for the cause of good but that's not a political agenda just basic decency.
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Orin J.
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BestialWarlust wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:07 pm
Honestly it can die in hellfire. I want my RPG games to be free of real world politics do what you want at your table but for publishers that want my money keep it fictional. If you want your game product to be some passive aggressive messaging and preaching I'll just pass your product up. I play these games for fun and someone trying to preach and cram their person views down my throat are not what I want in a game. Too much of this non sense has leaked into hobbies over the years and its tiresome. The fallacy that these games a were never "inclusive" is just non sense it's not the RPG systems it's the individual groups.
what in the hell are you talking about?.....
Braddoc
Posts: 31
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BestialWarlust wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:07 pm
Honestly it can die in hellfire. I want my RPG games to be free of real world politics do what you want at your table but for publishers that want my money keep it fictional. If you want your game product to be some passive aggressive messaging and preaching I'll just pass your product up. I play these games for fun and someone trying to preach and cram their person views down my throat are not what I want in a game. Too much of this non sense has leaked into hobbies over the years and its tiresome. The fallacy that these games a were never "inclusive" is just non sense it's not the RPG systems it's the individual groups.
First I agree with the post; I use entertaiment and games as escapism, not to be reminded of the world's realities like the rest of the time I'm awake. If I put some social group or messge, it'll either becasue it is part of a scenario I'm running, to make fun of it (à la Judea's People Front/People's Front of Judea affair) or use as background colour in Altdorf when some agitator barks this or that nonesence, in the name of whatever cause that's currently buying his drinks, right before the rioting starts.


Second, the larger, bolder text. The police change done by me to add focus on the phrase. The RPG game itself is nothing, it is just a mindless, souless thing. Ink on paper. Example. If your group's idea of playing Warhammer is having the PCs getting drunk and being old women in dark alleys to steal thier money, raping and killing them becasue it's funny, only to go drink and repeat the process again and again until the Watch gets involved or they decide to leave town to ply their trade somewhere else....well you can talk it out with the GM, and if that doesn't do much, take your things, get up, and go find another group; better yet start your own group.

Yes the game allows you to do that, but it's not the game's fault, it's the others at the table who are being ridiculous and see the game as carte blanche to do whatever (like the Murderhobo symdrome). Like saying on who's to blame during a car accident; the car or the driver?

And putting the blame on the easy access to cars is not the right answer as well, as the car by itself cannot do anything without direct human intervention.

Herr Arnulfe wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 9:19 pm
I'm not aware of any RPG products pushing political agendas. Which ones do you have in mind? AFAIK it's about making games more inclusive and relevant which I think we can agree are worthwhile goals. I suppose most games (including WFRP) assume the players are fighting for the cause of good but that's not a political agenda just basic decency.
Vampires 5th is a good example. They went from having a pre-made neo-nazi character for people to use in previous editions and games (Hunter:The Reckoning) to banning fascists from even picking thier book, even urging them to call someone and tell them 'where you went so wrong in your life'.

Then they go on about how Vampires are evil, but they are not that evil, and that PCs ough to oppose fascism in Vampirie society or in normal society (if they even decide to *gasp* use such notions on thier game), and how the Storyteller can pretty much only introduce fascist character to have them be defeated/redeemed by the players at a later point.

Talk about grey morality...grey as long as it's their shade of white that prevails.

D&D is getting there too, changing Orcs and Drows's stats penalties and backgrounds to fit the more sensitive, modern era.

RPG to reach the widest autience, is and must be broad in subject and description, that is why stereotyping is common; it falls to the individual groups and GMs to take some and give some. To give the inexperienced GM some idea to RP some jungle tribal (for example) which will be different from a farming medieval serfs or a town patriarch back when there was no real RPG 'community'.

I blame World of Warcraft and MMOs to have changed the perception of what a P&P RPG is, which brought all the changes we see and saw since now.

It is no longer about becoming someone else in another world, thinking, acting, reacting, becomming the character, but being youself while controlling an avatar in some enclosed setting, seeing and acting as you would, just without the limitations of your own body and reality.
BestialWarlust
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu May 14, 2020 7:06 am

Herr Arnulfe wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 9:19 pm
BestialWarlust wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:07 pm
Honestly it can die in hellfire. I want my RPG games to be free of real world politics do what you want at your table but for publishers that want my money keep it fictional. If you want your game product to be some passive aggressive messaging and preaching I'll just pass your product up. I play these games for fun and someone trying to preach and cram their person views down my throat are not what I want in a game. Too much of this non sense has leaked into hobbies over the years and its tiresome. The fallacy that these games a were never "inclusive" is just non sense it's not the RPG systems it's the individual groups.
I'm not aware of any RPG products pushing political agendas. Which ones do you have in mind? AFAIK it's about making games more inclusive and relevant which I think we can agree are worthwhile goals. I suppose most games (including WFRP) assume the players are fighting for the cause of good but that's not a political agenda just basic decency.
Specifically things like this

https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/featur ... ty-and-dnd

A quote from the article

"We've received valuable insights from sensitivity readers on two of our recent books. We are incorporating sensitivity readers into our creative process, and we will continue to reach out to experts in various fields to help us identify our blind spots."
BestialWarlust
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu May 14, 2020 7:06 am

Orin J. wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 9:37 pm
BestialWarlust wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:07 pm
Honestly it can die in hellfire. I want my RPG games to be free of real world politics do what you want at your table but for publishers that want my money keep it fictional. If you want your game product to be some passive aggressive messaging and preaching I'll just pass your product up. I play these games for fun and someone trying to preach and cram their person views down my throat are not what I want in a game. Too much of this non sense has leaked into hobbies over the years and its tiresome. The fallacy that these games a were never "inclusive" is just non sense it's not the RPG systems it's the individual groups.
what in the hell are you talking about?.....
D&D more specifically -- and sensitivity readers.

""We've received valuable insights from sensitivity readers on two of our recent books. We are incorporating sensitivity readers into our creative process, and we will continue to reach out to experts in various fields to help us identify our blind spots.""
Herr Arnulfe
Posts: 134
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:06 am

Braddoc wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 3:29 pm
Vampires 5th is a good example. They went from having a pre-made neo-nazi character for people to use in previous editions and games (Hunter:The Reckoning) to banning fascists from even picking thier book, even urging them to call someone and tell them 'where you went so wrong in your life'.

Then they go on about how Vampires are evil, but they are not that evil, and that PCs ough to oppose fascism in Vampirie society or in normal society (if they even decide to *gasp* use such notions on thier game), and how the Storyteller can pretty much only introduce fascist character to have them be defeated/redeemed by the players at a later point.

Talk about grey morality...grey as long as it's their shade of white that prevails.
I haven't followed Vampire, but it sounds like they really struggled with trying to portray "shades of grey" as pertains to fascism. Really, that's not a political issue anyway, it's an issue of basic human decency vs. oppression. There has never been an example of "good fascism" so attempts to portray its shades of grey are full of pitfalls. It's a rabbit-hole that I wouldn't advise any writer or GM to venture down unless it was just a one-off thought experiment. I have tried it occasionally, and generally someone ends up feeling dirty afterwards.
Braddoc wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 3:29 pm
D&D is getting there too, changing Orcs and Drows's stats penalties and backgrounds to fit the more sensitive, modern era.

RPG to reach the widest autience, is and must be broad in subject and description, that is why stereotyping is common; it falls to the individual groups and GMs to take some and give some. To give the inexperienced GM some idea to RP some jungle tribal (for example) which will be different from a farming medieval serfs or a town patriarch back when there was no real RPG 'community'.

I blame World of Warcraft and MMOs to have changed the perception of what a P&P RPG is, which brought all the changes we see and saw since now.

It is no longer about becoming someone else in another world, thinking, acting, reacting, becomming the character, but being youself while controlling an avatar in some enclosed setting, seeing and acting as you would, just without the limitations of your own body and reality.
The D&D Orc issue isn't really political, it's about whether an animal can give consent for sex with a human. They decided that Half-Orcs could only be conceived by an Orc raping a human or vice versa, and that was too squicky a concept for a regular PC race.

The Drow issue is political only because BLM vs. All Lives Matter is heavily politicized at present. However, fundamentally it's just about making D&D more welcoming to black gamers.
Herr Arnulfe
Posts: 134
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:06 am

BestialWarlust wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 5:25 pm
Specifically things like this

https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/featur ... ty-and-dnd

A quote from the article

"We've received valuable insights from sensitivity readers on two of our recent books. We are incorporating sensitivity readers into our creative process, and we will continue to reach out to experts in various fields to help us identify our blind spots."
Being sensitive to players of diverse backgrounds is not the same as politicizing the game.

Also, one can explore a lot of human interest topics that have nothing to do with politics, or one can go the route Toby did and create direct analogues of current politics. WFRP1e riffed on 1980's culture; should WFRP 4e not riff on 2020 culture? e.g. Should WFRP be treating Nurgle cultists as sympathetic characters now, or should they be unambiguous villains?
Braddoc
Posts: 31
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Herr Arnulfe wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 6:14 pm

I haven't followed Vampire, but it sounds like they really struggled with trying to portray "shades of grey" as pertains to fascism. Really, that's not a political issue anyway, it's an issue of basic human decency vs. oppression. There has never been an example of "good fascism" so attempts to portray its shades of grey are full of pitfalls. It's a rabbit-hole that I wouldn't advise any writer or GM to venture down unless it was just a one-off thought experiment. I have tried it occasionally, and generally someone ends up feeling dirty afterwards.


The D&D Orc issue isn't really political, it's about whether an animal can give consent for sex with a human. They decided that Half-Orcs could only be conceived by an Orc raping a human or vice versa, and that was too squicky a concept for a regular PC race.

The Drow issue is political only because BLM vs. All Lives Matter is heavily politicized at present. However, fundamentally it's just about making D&D more welcoming to black gamers.
First, oppression is not something limited to fascism, everybody does it. And its'a political system, so it ought to be political.

The thing is, Orcs are not animals; they have weapons, armour, a language, they may be dumber than your aveage Human, but they're not exactly bred in an intellectual enviromment to begin with. Because that's what's I'm getting from what you wrote, Wizards think Orcs are animals on two legs, or was told that the idea or impression invites itself to make one think as such. I did saw numerous 'Alliance in the North' or similar where some Half-Orc was there due to an argreement between Barbarians and some Orcs which had his parents to marry to 'seal the deal', or was just living 'good enough' with them to allow direct relations due long backstories.

Rest of the time, yeah it's 'human mother got rape by an Orc', or 'Orc mother got rape by some weirdo adventurer during a random encounter.' It's a Half-Orc, there's not 20 ways about it. Just remove the race instead of changing the past about the morality of its' creation.

How will Orcs be, or must, be played now by a GM or a PC playing one or a Half-Orc? Orcs, now poor, troubled souls who are under the thumb of an evil, sadistic God who only wants to rule the world and keep it locked under his oppressive heel.
(That sounds like a Fascist God to me!)
Victims of fate, who only wants to break free of their shackles and try to do so the only way they can, by looting, killing, pillaging and raping where ever they go. The helpless vctcims of an uncaring God!


And how are the Drow political? Matriarcal slavers who worships some Death Spider Godess...They were always an vil bunch..but a fonctionning societal bunch.

I'm more concerned about this point in the article
BestialWarlust wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 5:25 pm

Specifically things like this

https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/featur ... ty-and-dnd
Later this year, we will release a product (not yet announced) that offers a way for a player to customize their character’s origin including the option to change the ability score increases that come from being an elf, a dwarf, or one of D&D's many other playable folk. This option emphasizes that each person in the game is an individual with capabilities all their own.

So more tailor-made character generation, less of a firm or stable, game system so that each got strength and weaknesses. No wait- they are no more attribute penalties for playing any non-humans.

Once again- it is less and less about playing a character than being yourself controlling an avatar, or bot, in a fantasy world à la WoW.
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Totsuzenheni Yukimi
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Can i take it from what has been written above, that some people here don't think that rape (to take the example that's come up), implied or otherwise, should be a part of an RPG? Can i also take it from what has been written above, that some people here don't think that anyone should have 'negative feelings', or be left 'feeling dirty' (to use Herr Arnulfe's phrase), as it were, when playing an RPG? Would those people say the same for literature or film?
Herr Arnulfe
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totsuzenheni wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 2:24 am
Can i take it from what has been written above, that some people here don't think that rape (to take the example that's come up), implied or otherwise, should be a part of an RPG? Can i also take it from what has been written above, that some people here don't think that anyone should have 'negative feelings', or be left 'feeling dirty' (to use Herr Arnulfe's phrase), as it were, when playing an RPG? Would those people say the same for literature or film?
WotC didn't feel comfortable having rape as the default origin story for Half-Orcs.

I dont advise exploring "shades of grey" with fascism. Literature and film don't do this either.

That's all I said. What are you driving at anyway?
Le Passant
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Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2020 9:20 am

I personnally have many difficulties to understand the whole agitation in english-speaking countries about all this.

I hope to be able to propose you soon an Araby fan sourcebook. There will be slavery, intolerance and religious conflict. Would there a problem talking about this ?
I dont advise exploring "shades of grey" with fascism. Literature and film don't do this either.
Actually they do. Fascists are humans, as well as communists, capitalists, christians, muslims, buddhists or any member of any "community" you could find. They are flawed, they have emotions, reasons, fears. Fascists ar not "evil", they are humans with disputable political, ecnonomical or societal views, at lest by actual western moral standards. It is so quite normal that works of fiction touch this kind of subject.
Robin
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Braddoc wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 9:12 pm
And how are the Drow political?
Black skin (and on the cover of Queen of the Spiders, not even literal black, but brown).

The very concept of a wholly evil race that should be attacked and killed at every opportunity, which is also part of the problem with Orcs. You know, a justification for genocide.

For some of the viler elements of our society, these races are seen as acting as stand-ins for real world cultures or simply support their philosophies. Some publishers and gamers seek to avoid facilitating the fantasies of those elements and to avoid alienating those who see the problem. Personally, in some instances I would do things differently, but I won't fault them for recognising an issue and attempting to do something about it.

Regards,

Robin
Herr Arnulfe
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Le Passant wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 3:57 am
Actually they do. Fascists are humans, as well as communists, capitalists, christians, muslims, buddhists or any member of any "community" you could find. They are flawed, they have emotions, reasons, fears. Fascists ar not "evil", they are humans with disputable political, ecnonomical or societal views, at lest by actual western moral standards. It is so quite normal that works of fiction touch this kind of subject.
Exploring the psychology of fascist characters is different from exploring the ideology of fascism. It's usually a way of examining why people turn to fascism in the first place. You won't find respectable literature or movies equivocating on fascist ideology though.
Herr Arnulfe
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Le Passant wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 3:57 am
I hope to be able to propose you soon an Araby fan sourcebook. There will be slavery, intolerance and religious conflict. Would there a problem talking about this ?
Sounds exciting! I wish I had time to delve back into the fan material world.
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