Size question

The enemy lurks in shadows
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yoroba
Posts: 61
Joined: Thu May 14, 2020 11:25 am

Another newbie question:

When using the monsters in the rulebook, do I ADD the 10 S and T and DEDUCT the 5 Ag from the stats of creatures with the Large trait (fx Trolls, page 324). Or are the stats already adjusted to the creature's traits?
Fx do a troll (on page 324) have 55 S or does it actually have 65 S beacuse of the Large trait?

(I ask because in "Hard days, rough nights" the NPC stats that have increased from traits, have been written in italics. This doesn't seem to be the case in any other of my 4th edition books).
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Orin J.
Posts: 469
Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:39 pm

if the monsters are worked through like the example player races at the beginning, then the stats have already been adjusted. that said it's a crapshoot with C7's work so i'd math out their wounds to be sure on if it's been done or not.
adambeyoncelowe
Posts: 130
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2020 3:54 pm

yoroba wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 11:48 am
Another newbie question:

When using the monsters in the rulebook, do I ADD the 10 S and T and DEDUCT the 5 Ag from the stats of creatures with the Large trait (fx Trolls, page 324). Or are the stats already adjusted to the creature's traits?
Fx do a troll (on page 324) have 55 S or does it actually have 65 S beacuse of the Large trait?

(I ask because in "Hard days, rough nights" the NPC stats that have increased from traits, have been written in italics. This doesn't seem to be the case in any other of my 4th edition books).
Ah, I see your problem. You're getting Big and Size (Large) mixed up. It's an easy mistake to make.

The default Troll has Size (Large) so you don't need to add anything to its stats. It doesn't also get Big as a default--that's an additional Trait.

Size (Large) is described on p.341 and affects Wounds and Damage, etc, but doesn't give any bonuses to Strength, Toughness or Agility on its own (though it does mean the creature calculates Wounds differently).

The Big Creature Trait is separate to Size (Large). It gives +10 Strength and Toughness and -5 Agility, but the resultant creature isn't necessarily Size (Large). It's just one size larger than normal.

Note that the Trait specifically refers to 'a large example of its species' not a Size (Large) example of its species.

In theory, you could give Big to a Halfling to make a Size (Medium) Halfling instead of a Small (Size) Halfling. Does that make sense?

I.e., a Troll with Size (Large) is the normal size for its species, so the default stats are the baseline. If you add the Big Trait, that would make an Enormous Troll instead, which is 'a large example of its species' as per the Big Trait. It would then take the +10 S and T, and -5 Ag.

Finally, the baseline monsters in the Bestiary are like the default Humans before they go through character creation. So you need to give them either Career Advances, like a normal PC, or additional Traits to round them out.

E.g., look at the Optional Traits below the Troll. You can add any number of those to your Troll to flesh it out. There's a great article on how to do it here: http://lawhammer.blogspot.com/2020/01/t ... rolls.html

And a similar article for Orcs here: http://lawhammer.blogspot.com/2020/02/l ... -orcs.html

The idea is that you can tailor the monsters to your party by giving them a similar number of Advances or slapping on whatever Traits you feel are appropriate.
yoroba
Posts: 61
Joined: Thu May 14, 2020 11:25 am

This was very enlightening. Thank you very much. I see the monsters and NPCs in a completely different light now. Thank you!
adambeyoncelowe
Posts: 130
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2020 3:54 pm

yoroba wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 12:14 am
This was very enlightening. Thank you very much. I see the monsters and NPCs in a completely different light now. Thank you!
No problem!
SigmariteOrWrong
Posts: 43
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2020 5:55 am

adambeyoncelowe wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 4:20 am
In theory, you could give Big to a Halfling to make a Size (Medium) Halfling instead of a Small (Size) Halfling. Does that make sense?
Not Quite. A Size (Medium) Halfling is a Size (Medium) Halfling. Big is completely separate from Size.

As the trait says, it is a large example of it's species, an extreme outlier. So a 'Big' Halfling might be 4' tall and broad as a billygoat, but still a Size (Small) creature.

Hafþór Björnsson, at 205cm and 188kg (6'9", 400lbs) is a 'Big' Human, but he's not a Size (Large) creature like a horse. Though I'd still be tempted to give ordinary folk fighting him a fear test. By comparison the average Australian Brumby, our local small wild mountain horse, is around 450kg.

I'm really tempted to use various monster traits like Big & Belligerent as mutations for PCs, the more to lure them towards Chaos.
adambeyoncelowe
Posts: 130
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2020 3:54 pm

SigmariteOrWrong wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 6:19 am
adambeyoncelowe wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 4:20 am
In theory, you could give Big to a Halfling to make a Size (Medium) Halfling instead of a Small (Size) Halfling. Does that make sense?
Not Quite. A Size (Medium) Halfling is a Size (Medium) Halfling. Big is completely separate from Size.

As the trait says, it is a large example of it's species, an extreme outlier. So a 'Big' Halfling might be 4' tall and broad as a billygoat, but still a Size (Small) creature.

Hafþór Björnsson, at 205cm and 188kg (6'9", 400lbs) is a 'Big' Human, but he's not a Size (Large) creature like a horse. Though I'd still be tempted to give ordinary folk fighting him a fear test. By comparison the average Australian Brumby, our local small wild mountain horse, is around 450kg.

I'm really tempted to use various monster traits like Big & Belligerent as mutations for PCs, the more to lure them towards Chaos.
Thanks for the clarification. The rules are always more complicated than I remember. I checked, and you're right. Size is yet another Trait to be added on, and is still separate from Big.
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