4th - Magic points?

Cubicle 7 // 2018
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yoroba
Posts: 15
Joined: Thu May 14, 2020 11:25 am

I just recently switched from 1st to 4th.
Are there magic points in 4th edition? Or some drawbacks from casting too much magic?
adambeyoncelowe
Posts: 69
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2020 3:54 pm

yoroba wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 11:26 am
I just recently switched from 1st to 4th.
Are there magic points in 4th edition? Or some drawbacks from casting too much magic?
No. If you get Instinctive Diction and Perfect Pitch up, you can cast relatively quickly. Get War Wizard later and you're laughing. Spam Dart to build up Advantage, then cast. Channelling is a waste of XP, so just go all in on Language (Magick). Elves get to learn more than one Wind too, so they're a good shout.
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Arnizipal
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There are downsides to casting too much. Miscasts can happen when you roll a critical success when casting spells, or when you fumble on casting or channeling.
makrellen
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Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:01 am

adambeyoncelowe wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 1:39 pm
No. If you get Instinctive Diction and Perfect Pitch up, you can cast relatively quickly. Get War Wizard later and you're laughing. Spam Dart to build up Advantage, then cast. Channelling is a waste of XP, so just go all in on Language (Magick). Elves get to learn more than one Wind too, so they're a good shout.
While this is perfectly good advice I just feel so sad that this is a "thing" in 4th ed. I used to look at Pathfinder/D&D 4e threads starting with "OMG - perfect Wizard build" and laugh since Warhammer never really had that (particularly not in 1st ed where someone choosing to play a Wizards apprentice were pretty much out of their mind).

And now we came to this.... So sad that 4th ed ended up so clunky, un-manageble and waaaaaay too easy to game for those who want to.

But no disrepect meant to those who want to build optimal Wizards - I know I would do the same if presented with the ruleset in 4th ed.
Shambler
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Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2020 4:53 pm

adambeyoncelowe wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 1:39 pm
No. If you get Instinctive Diction and Perfect Pitch up, you can cast relatively quickly.
IIRC there's a FAQ or Errata that says that Perfect Pitch does not aid with Language Magick. But it does not change the rest of your analysis.
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Orin J.
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Shambler wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 12:58 pm
adambeyoncelowe wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 1:39 pm
No. If you get Instinctive Diction and Perfect Pitch up, you can cast relatively quickly.
IIRC there's a FAQ or Errata that says that Perfect Pitch does not aid with Language Magick. But it does not change the rest of your analysis.
there was a discussion where that was a house rule, but last i read PP DOES aid language: magick.

the errata page says nothing either: https://diw2l4zrbsp3w.cloudfront.net/wp ... 28_Feb.pdf
Shambler
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Yeah, I only found this FAQ2 https://www.cubicle7games.com/4919-2/ that only says that it does not mean you don't have to roll a casting test. And admittedly, language Magick is explicitly mentioned in the talent description. Still, I'm rather sure to have read something at least semi-official that Perfect Pitch does not aid with casting. When you look at “Instinctive diction“ it specifies that helps with language magick tests when casting, something Perfect pitch does not specify. But I haven't found much more to back my memory...
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Orin J.
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Shambler wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 4:24 pm
Yeah, I only found this FAQ2 https://www.cubicle7games.com/4919-2/ that only says that it does not mean you don't have to roll a casting test. And admittedly, language Magick is explicitly mentioned in the talent description. Still, I'm rather sure to have read something at least semi-official that Perfect Pitch does not aid with casting. When you look at “Instinctive diction“ it specifies that helps with language magick tests when casting, something Perfect pitch does not specify. But I haven't found much more to back my memory...
the developers have a really nasty habit of getting into discussions on the internet and agreeing with people's houserules in a way that implies they'd make them official if they could. you might have been in a discord chat or something where that happened.....
Shambler
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Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2020 4:53 pm

That may well be.
adambeyoncelowe
Posts: 69
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2020 3:54 pm

Shambler wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 4:24 pm
Yeah, I only found this FAQ2 https://www.cubicle7games.com/4919-2/ that only says that it does not mean you don't have to roll a casting test. And admittedly, language Magick is explicitly mentioned in the talent description. Still, I'm rather sure to have read something at least semi-official that Perfect Pitch does not aid with casting. When you look at “Instinctive diction“ it specifies that helps with language magick tests when casting, something Perfect pitch does not specify. But I haven't found much more to back my memory...
It must have been a house rule. The tests line still adds SLs to Language (Magick) Tests. A common house rule is to cap ID and PP to one for this reason, though. Maybe that's what you saw? PP is out of Career, too, though it can be a starting Talent.

It is indeed a pity that Channelling is a waste, but when someone on the Discord crunched the numbers, you essentially require many more rounds to use magic if you dual specialise in Language (Magick) and Channelling together. Wizards are naff at the start but become much better with time. If you invest in Channelling, it delays that progression even more.

One way around it, I think, is to make Channelling be used for Petty Magic, Dispelling and Rituals, and Language (Magick) be used for casting. But that's firmly a house rule. You would probably then need to change CNs (half +1 is popular).

Oh, and Aethyric Attunement and Instinctive Diction both remove miscasts on critical successes with magic. Yup, you read that right. So they're pretty essential purchases.
CommanderCax
Posts: 19
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2020 1:43 pm

A viable House Rule might be to allow Channeling instead of Move thereby not using up the Action. Maybe this will make it an more interesting option. I am about to try this for my groups grey wizard.
SigmariteOrWrong
Posts: 20
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2020 5:55 am

While the rules do seem a bit vague, there are some things I interpret in the rules that others aren't seeing.

Channelling is useful for younger Wizards trying to reach the high SLs needed for casting spells, particularly all the ones they are casting while using a Grimoire. So an apprentice good at Channelling could whip an apprentice who is not. Pay attention to all your studys, my young apprentice, if you want to survive.

Channelling also doesn't require chanting like a Language (Magick) test does, and the lower the SL of the L(M) test, the more quietly or subtly it might be done. It's mentioned in passing as a hand-wavily vague guide (p236), but I'd keep it cannon in my games to make Channelling better for stealth, versus normal folk at least; Wizards will possibly notice the Winds eddying around.

Channelled spells are actually less susceptible to Dispelling than a flat cast spell. The Counterspell must reduce the Final Casting L(M) SL of the spell below +0SL if it had enough SL from Channelling to work anyway. This is better for the caster than a raw L(M) vs L(M) roll, which only needs to knock it down below the SL needed to cast the spell. Casting a big battle spell against an enemy force with a Wizard willing to counterspell? Better start Channelling.

Another thing I'd use Channelling for is for concerted spells, where multiple casters contribute to the magic pool as a whole. I hope they will cover ritual magic like this in some later book. With the RAW I can see apprentices being used as generators of magic winds for bigger spells by their masters. I'm sure someone can whip up some rules for it.

Heck, why not allow Channelling to change the dominant winds in an area by summoning powerful eddies of magic around the Channeller. Dangerous stuff, but worth it in a conflict. I can imagine Wizards and their apprentices battling in out with Channelling as much as L(M) casting tests, trying to inhibit their opponents available winds, shooting off minor spells while trying counterspell anything big an opponent might try to get off.

Try to think of ways to make Magick bigger, more cinematic, and much scarier with the rules we have in the book.

Heck, we've even got non magic PC's considering learning L(M) so they can cast counterspells if need be. Dangerous forces to tangle with.
adambeyoncelowe
Posts: 69
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2020 3:54 pm

SigmariteOrWrong wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 7:15 am
While the rules do seem a bit vague, there are some things I interpret in the rules that others aren't seeing.

Channelling is useful for younger Wizards trying to reach the high SLs needed for casting spells, particularly all the ones they are casting while using a Grimoire. So an apprentice good at Channelling could whip an apprentice who is not. Pay attention to all your studys, my young apprentice, if you want to survive.

Channelling also doesn't require chanting like a Language (Magick) test does, and the lower the SL of the L(M) test, the more quietly or subtly it might be done. It's mentioned in passing as a hand-wavily vague guide (p236), but I'd keep it cannon in my games to make Channelling better for stealth, versus normal folk at least; Wizards will possibly notice the Winds eddying around.

Channelled spells are actually less susceptible to Dispelling than a flat cast spell. The Counterspell must reduce the Final Casting L(M) SL of the spell below +0SL if it had enough SL from Channelling to work anyway. This is better for the caster than a raw L(M) vs L(M) roll, which only needs to knock it down below the SL needed to cast the spell. Casting a big battle spell against an enemy force with a Wizard willing to counterspell? Better start Channelling.

Another thing I'd use Channelling for is for concerted spells, where multiple casters contribute to the magic pool as a whole. I hope they will cover ritual magic like this in some later book. With the RAW I can see apprentices being used as generators of magic winds for bigger spells by their masters. I'm sure someone can whip up some rules for it.

Heck, why not allow Channelling to change the dominant winds in an area by summoning powerful eddies of magic around the Channeller. Dangerous stuff, but worth it in a conflict. I can imagine Wizards and their apprentices battling in out with Channelling as much as L(M) casting tests, trying to inhibit their opponents available winds, shooting off minor spells while trying counterspell anything big an opponent might try to get off.

Try to think of ways to make Magick bigger, more cinematic, and much scarier with the rules we have in the book.

Heck, we've even got non magic PC's considering learning L(M) so they can cast counterspells if need be. Dangerous forces to tangle with.
These are good suggestions.
yoroba
Posts: 15
Joined: Thu May 14, 2020 11:25 am

Thank you guys so much for the input. You've given me some great ideas for my game.
FasterThanJesus
Posts: 209
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2019 4:30 pm
Location: UK

makrellen wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 8:29 am
adambeyoncelowe wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 1:39 pm
No. If you get Instinctive Diction and Perfect Pitch up, you can cast relatively quickly. Get War Wizard later and you're laughing. Spam Dart to build up Advantage, then cast. Channelling is a waste of XP, so just go all in on Language (Magick). Elves get to learn more than one Wind too, so they're a good shout.
While this is perfectly good advice I just feel so sad that this is a "thing" in 4th ed. I used to look at Pathfinder/D&D 4e threads starting with "OMG - perfect Wizard build" and laugh since Warhammer never really had that (particularly not in 1st ed where someone choosing to play a Wizards apprentice were pretty much out of their mind).

And now we came to this.... So sad that 4th ed ended up so clunky, un-manageble and waaaaaay too easy to game for those who want to.

But no disrepect meant to those who want to build optimal Wizards - I know I would do the same if presented with the ruleset in 4th ed.
Indeed. I've just had my first introduction to Pathfinder from playing the RPG Kingmaker. Why am I dying so badly compared to every game like this I played? Oh you need 2 levels of kineticist, one level of monk , 3 of vivisectionsist and then you can get these feats...Er, okay.

4th ed isn't that bad but I think this comes naturally with having a lot of mechanics.

I do think there should be more of a penalty for constantly casting, whether that's draining the local ambient magic or increasing risks/severity of miscasts.
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