4th to 1st rules adaptation

Cubicle 7 // 2018
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BestialWarlust
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu May 14, 2020 7:06 am

Long time WH RPG player since first edition, with some questions about adapting some things from 4th to first. Now my intent is not to start edition wars and I'm not sure if this is more appropriate here or the 1st edition board. When fourth came out I was excited I've been through the drought f first edition with GW then finally some material when Hogshead took over....then nothing for a while. When Second edition came out I bought it but never ran it. I did like some of it but personal taste I didn't like the forced use of color magic (no I've never played the war game. Ironically I bought Realms of sorcery when it came out and didn't mind the color magic there as the high end special magic something that could be brought in or left out) So I ended up never actually running second edition though I do own several of the books.

Then third edition came out I just completely skipped it not to my taste at all. When I heard about fourth I pre order and eagerly waited. I liked some of the ideas but found a lot of it not really fun the way it was put together. I read the threads here and on Strike to Stun and found to my disappointment I would probably never use 4th edition ( still may give it a try one day but not any time soon) However I did find a lot of intriguing ideas. So what I'm wondering is who here is adapting things they like from 4th into a 1st edition or even 2nd edition game. What did you adapt? did it make your game better?
makrellen
Posts: 57
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:01 am

I am using two things from 4th ed in my 1st ed game - endeavors and dramatic tests. Both fit in perfectly - endeavors were really easy to convert (and makes the whole career switching easier to narrate) and dramatic tests is really just a codifying of what was already partially there in 1st ed already.
CapnZapp
Posts: 263
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:15 am
Location: Norsca

We've run a massive campaign in 4E. Will never use the ruleset again - next time we're back to 2E.

So I've thought about which bots and bobs that can be salvaged.

The players liked the open-ended careers system. But ultimately it just isn't balanced. There's a reason skills are secondary to characteristics in the WFRP framework. And while the idea "stay in your first character forever just pay double XP to raise your stats indefinitely" appeals to us wary of the inflexibility of the 2E career "web" it's just too easy to minmax becoming a combat god in 4E.

The opposed Tests system did cure whiffing. But it ultimately didn't work, like at all. Get 75% in Charm and basically mind control everybody else. The effect of 80% vs 40% simply becomes too great, compared to the basic Test resolution of 2E. (Pro-Tip: You can't allow PCs to increase a stat that attacks a defense stat most NPCs and monsters simply leave untouched. (That's a fundamental and huge error - it's like a game of D&D where WotC somehow forgot to make Armor Class or perhaps Will Save increase with overall potency...)

Most ideas introduced by 4E are amateur failures. Advantage is a whopper - just added with zero thought. The changed damage system is a load of clutter for zero payoff, since the only important bit is Bleeding anyway. 2E works much better (and quicker) in this regard. 2E spellcasting rules are better (4E wizards go from completely useless to OMG damage-kings with a too-narrow comfort zone in between), and 4E spells are just as bland as 2E spells. So no useful theft there either.

Weapon traits, talent details and monster traits are hopelessly complicated and cluttery and it will frankly be a relief to leave it behind (not to speak of the absolutely useless 4E Bestiary).

Which basically leaves Endeavors. That's not a bad idea - there's just not enough material to avoid repetition when running a longer campaign. And while losing all your loot at the end of adventures isn't inconceivable, it fits Sword & Sorcery far better than WFRP imo)

So I guess in the end all 4E managed to accomplish is to renew our respect for the design values of 2E... (I still want an updated 2E edition, but I won't buy a game from the 4E jokers ever again.)
Graak
Posts: 51
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:50 pm

CapnZapp wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 11:22 am
We've run a massive campaign in 4E. Will never use the ruleset again - next time we're back to 2E.

So I've thought about which bots and bobs that can be salvaged.

The players liked the open-ended careers system. But ultimately it just isn't balanced. There's a reason skills are secondary to characteristics in the WFRP framework. And while the idea "stay in your first character forever just pay double XP to raise your stats indefinitely" appeals to us wary of the inflexibility of the 2E career "web" it's just too easy to minmax becoming a combat god in 4E.

The opposed Tests system did cure whiffing. But it ultimately didn't work, like at all. Get 75% in Charm and basically mind control everybody else. The effect of 80% vs 40% simply becomes too great, compared to the basic Test resolution of 2E. (Pro-Tip: You can't allow PCs to increase a stat that attacks a defense stat most NPCs and monsters simply leave untouched. (That's a fundamental and huge error - it's like a game of D&D where WotC somehow forgot to make Armor Class or perhaps Will Save increase with overall potency...)

Most ideas introduced by 4E are amateur failures. Advantage is a whopper - just added with zero thought. The changed damage system is a load of clutter for zero payoff, since the only important bit is Bleeding anyway. 2E works much better (and quicker) in this regard. 2E spellcasting rules are better (4E wizards go from completely useless to OMG damage-kings with a too-narrow comfort zone in between), and 4E spells are just as bland as 2E spells. So no useful theft there either.

Weapon traits, talent details and monster traits are hopelessly complicated and cluttery and it will frankly be a relief to leave it behind (not to speak of the absolutely useless 4E Bestiary).

Which basically leaves Endeavors. That's not a bad idea - there's just not enough material to avoid repetition when running a longer campaign. And while losing all your loot at the end of adventures isn't inconceivable, it fits Sword & Sorcery far better than WFRP imo)

So I guess in the end all 4E managed to accomplish is to renew our respect for the design values of 2E... (I still want an updated 2E edition, but I won't buy a game from the 4E jokers ever again.)
Cap, I would love to read a post by you about the possible modifications to apply to 2nd edition.
I already know the "number of attacks" House rule you wrote back in the StStun days and it works like a charm! I'm curious to hear if you have other nice ideas!
CapnZapp
Posts: 263
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:15 am
Location: Norsca

Graak wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2020 12:28 am
Cap, I would love to read a post by you about the possible modifications to apply to 2nd edition.
I already know the "number of attacks" House rule you wrote back in the StStun days and it works like a charm! I'm curious to hear if you have other nice ideas!
This time I'll be a player, not the GM.

I'm afraid the GM isn't as interested in rules development as I am. (To be honest, few people I've met is... ;) )

One good idea is to allow each player to tweak careers by replacing one or two skills. (This would supersede my recommendation to allow all advanced careers to take Dodge) The GM isn't doing it primarily to update the system though, but to make it easier for us players to choose his new "prestige talents" (semi-magical abilities(?) that depend on otherwise less used skills = By allowing a player to replace a skill or two in her chosen career, this ensures a player character can meet the requirement of any particular "prestige talent" regardless of career choice)

PS. But it's possible I will have thoughts anyway. See you in the 2E forum...
PPS. The houserule document Graak is speaking of can be found here:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=9
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TyCaine
Posts: 8
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:54 pm

Just to mention, there's an official 1st to 4th conversion document available direct from Cubicle 7 via DriveThruRPG for free:
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/31 ... =179_31700

Maybe with that it'll make it easier to reverse engineer from 4th to 1st?

~Ty
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