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Re: Beyond The Enemy Within campaign, upcoming releases

Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2021 2:46 am
by FasterThanJesus
Decent interview. A few of those items were listed on the website updates.

I'm guessing Nuln for the city book and elves (albeit it's probably obvious) for the race book. Kislev for the next part of the old world to look at?

No mention of the Gav Thorpe New World adventure so maybe that's not happening as some people have speculated. Or it could just simply be a long way off.

Re: Beyond The Enemy Within campaign, upcoming releases

Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2021 8:02 pm
by Gideon
FasterThanJesus wrote:
Fri Jul 09, 2021 2:46 am
No mention of the Gav Thorpe New World adventure so maybe that's not happening as some people have speculated. Or it could just simply be a long way off.
It's been rumoured for years now. I think if it was going to appear, we'd have heard something official by now.

Re: Beyond The Enemy Within campaign, upcoming releases

Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2021 2:35 am
by Capitaneus Fractus
sx dwarf wrote:
Thu Jul 08, 2021 8:43 am
  • A book for a race for which previous edition left vastly unexploited
Previous edition (the third one) or previous editions (all of them)?

Re: Beyond The Enemy Within campaign, upcoming releases

Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2021 12:03 pm
by sx dwarf
Capitaneus Fractus wrote:
Sun Jul 11, 2021 2:35 am

Previous edition (the third one) or previous editions (all of them)?
Unspecified, your guest is as good as mine, but I lean towards all editions.

Re: Beyond The Enemy Within campaign, upcoming releases

Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2021 2:58 am
by FasterThanJesus
Gideon wrote:
Sat Jul 10, 2021 8:02 pm
It's been rumoured for years now. I think if it was going to appear, we'd have heard something official by now.
Although I'm inclined to agree with you, it was referred to in an interview with the Cubicle 7 CEO sometime last year. I think there's little point in pondering it unless we get any official announcements.

Re: Beyond The Enemy Within campaign, upcoming releases

Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2021 6:32 am
by FasterThanJesus
Capitaneus Fractus wrote:
Sun Jul 11, 2021 2:35 am
Previous edition (the third one) or previous editions (all of them)?
I don't recall the exact phrasing in the interview, but it sounded a bit generic, like "in the past", or "before". However, this is on the roadmap update:

"We will be exploring in more depth some of the non-human species that we have heard you clamouring for, and intend to stretch our wings, as it were, in exploring regions beyond the borders of the Empire."

If it is an elf supplement since we're due one, it would be interesting if it's just the Old World Elves with basically a Loren supplement or if it will include Ulthuan and Naggaroth.

Re: Beyond The Enemy Within campaign, upcoming releases

Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2021 7:32 am
by Totsuzenheni Yukimi
Perhaps, if the elves are getting a source book, then the Ulthuan 'sea' elves, such as they are, might make an appearance, along with their residence in Marienburg and, according to the new The Old World map, their enclaves dotted along the Bretonnian coast.

Re: Beyond The Enemy Within campaign, upcoming releases

Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2021 7:54 am
by Capitaneus Fractus
Common playable characters' species in WFRP (and their available cultures in WFRP4) are:
-Men (Reiklander: WFRP4; Middenheimer: MCWW4; Middenlander: MCWW4; Nordlander: MCWW4; others: nothing yet);
-Halflings (Reiklander: WFRP4, AEI; Mootlander: AEI; others: nothing yet);
-Dwarrows (Reiklander: WFRP4, AEI; Azgarazer: AEI; others: nothing yet);
-Elves (Asur: WFRP4; Asrai: WFRP4; Eonir: WFRP4, AEI; others: nothing yet);
-Gnomes (Glimdwarrower: RNHD; others: nothing yet);
-Ogres (nothing yet, but an announcement for AEII).

Of those and as far as I know, only men, dwarrows and elves were covered in the base box of the previous edition. Halflings and ogres were covered in a supplement. Up to Rough Nights & Hard Days, Gnomes weren't covered since WFRP1...

Re: Beyond The Enemy Within campaign, upcoming releases

Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2021 12:21 pm
by Totsuzenheni Yukimi
When did dwarves become dwarrows?

Re: Beyond The Enemy Within campaign, upcoming releases

Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2021 4:38 pm
by Capitaneus Fractus
The correct plural of dwarf (the regular continuation of Old English dweorg) is dwarrows (from dweorgas), later levelled down to "dwarfs" (probably under the influence of the French and Latin accusative plurals, which are commonly in -s). The latter, "dwarfs", is the plural used by Games Workshop. The oblique stem dweorge- would have led to dwery.
The use of "dwarves", as a plural of dwarf, is "a piece of private bad grammar", to quote J.R.R. Tolkien, that is paradoxically more commonly used for the Middle Earth (in imitation to the plural of elf in elves).

Re: Beyond The Enemy Within campaign, upcoming releases

Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2021 1:49 am
by Robin
Capitaneus Fractus wrote:
Wed Jul 14, 2021 4:38 pm
The correct plural of dwarf (the regular continuation of Old English dweorg) is dwarrows (from dweorgas), later levelled down to "dwarfs" (probably under the influence of the French and Latin accusative plurals, which are commonly in -s). The latter, "dwarfs", is the plural used by Games Workshop. The oblique stem dweorge- would have led to dwery.
The use of "dwarves", as a plural of dwarf, is "a piece of private bad grammar", to quote J.R.R. Tolkien, that is paradoxically more commonly used for the Middle Earth (in imitation to the plural of elf in elves).
I found this rather interesting and it took me down a short rabbit hole.

There's no mention of the word in The New Shorter Oxford English Dictionary, although it does mention the Old English and its variants.

Asking google to define dwarrow does indeed bring up dwarf, but it doesn't provide much for Dwarrow or its origin. One link provides another link to the wikipedia entry for Dwarf_(Middle-earth), which claims that Tolkien says the real historical plural of dwarf is dwarrows or dwerrows. However, I went to the provided reference for this claim, and while it does say that the "Old English plural dweorgas became Middle English dwarrows", it does not say that Tolkien himself made this claim.

So, I went to the Middle English Dictionary at the University of Michigan and tried both dwarrow and dwerrow, with and without an s, and nothing came up.

Undeterred, I thought to myself, let's try it with a single r and... hurrah! Dwergh comes up! It also lists a number of forms:

dwergh n. Also (1) dwerh, dweruʒ, dwæruh, dwargh, dreugh, draugh, dwerk; (2) dwerf, dweruf, dwarf, dwarof, dworf, dwelf, dwerþ; (3) dweri, dwerʒe, dweorʒe, dweorge, dworʒe; (4) dwerw(e, dwerwh(e, dwerewe, dwerowe, dwarwe, dwarow, dworow, dreu, durwe.


I think I'll be sticking with Dwarfs.

Regards,

Robin

Re: Beyond The Enemy Within campaign, upcoming releases

Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2021 3:10 am
by Karanthir
For once it's not GW making up silly names!

Re: Beyond The Enemy Within campaign, upcoming releases

Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2021 7:52 am
by Totsuzenheni Yukimi
Capitaneus Fractus wrote:
Wed Jul 14, 2021 4:38 pm
The use of "dwarves", as a plural of dwarf, is "a piece of private bad grammar", to quote J.R.R. Tolkien, that is paradoxically more commonly used for the Middle Earth (in imitation to the plural of elf in elves).
From what i read, J.R.R. Tolkien was referring to his own use of the plural 'dwarves' and the adjective 'dwarvish' in The Hobbit, so there's nothing paradoxical about that plural and that adjective being used either in reference to, or in J.R.R. Tolkien's works.
Robin wrote:
Thu Jul 15, 2021 1:49 am
One link provides another link to the wikipedia entry for Dwarf_(Middle-earth), which claims that Tolkien says the real historical plural of dwarf is dwarrows or dwerrows. However, I went to the provided reference for this claim, and while it does say that the "Old English plural dweorgas became Middle English dwarrows", it does not say that Tolkien himself made this claim.
It also says that the Middle English 'dwarrows' "later leveled down to dwarfs".

In any case, my question is answered, and it's all much of a muchness.

Wikipedia entry for 'Dwarf (Middle-earth)' Section 6.3 Spelling.
Online Etymology Dictionary entry for 'Dwarf', as linked to in the aforemention Wikipedia article.

Re: Beyond The Enemy Within campaign, upcoming releases

Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2021 2:22 pm
by Capitaneus Fractus
Robin wrote:
Thu Jul 15, 2021 1:49 am
I found this rather interesting and it took me down a short rabbit hole.
We share same interests and like to explore the same rabbit worlds, I presume :)
I'm glad to read your researches.

Just two points that might complete them:
Robin wrote:
Thu Jul 15, 2021 1:49 am
There's no mention of the word in The New Shorter Oxford English Dictionary, although it does mention the Old English and its variants.
The "classical" Oxford English Dictionary however knows and quotes the spelling "dwarrows", with two r and one s:
Oxford English Dictionary wrote:"dwarf, n. and a.
(dwɔːf) Pl. -fs; Forms: α. 1 duerg, dweorg, dweorh, 2 dwæruh, 4 dweruȝ, 4–5 dwerȝ(e, 5 dwergh, dwargh(e, duergh, dwerk, 5– 6 Sc. duerch(e, dorche, droich. β. 4 dweruf, 4–5 dwerf(e, dwerff(e, (dwrfe), 5–7 dwarfe, 6–7 dwarff(e, 7 dwearf, 5– dwarf. γ. 4 duerwe, durwe, dwarw, 5 dwerwh(e, dwerwe, dwerowe, duorow. δ. 5 dwery, duery, dueri. [Comm. Teut.: OE. dweorg, dweorh (:—dwerg), = OFris. dwirg, OLG. *dwerg (MDu. dwerch, Du. dwerg, MLG. dwerch, dwarch, LG. dwark, dwarf (Brem. Wbch.), dorf), OHG. twerg (MHG. twerc, Ger. zwerg), ON. dvergr, (Sw., Da. dverg):—OTeut. *dwergo-z:—Aryan type *dhwérgwhos, represented phonetically in Gr. by σέρϕος (:—*τϝέρϕος) ‘midge’. In English the word shows interesting phonetic processes: (1) the original guttural and vowel came down in Sc. duerch, duergh (whence dorch, and by metathesis droich). (2) In Eng. dweorg became regularly dwarf (eor—: ar as in bark; g—: f as in enough, draft). But (3) the pl. dweorgas became dwerwhes, dwerwes, dwerows, dwarrows; and (4) the inflected form dweorge- gave dwerȝhe, dweryhe, dwerye, dwery. From these, by ‘levelling’, arose corresponding forms of the nom. sing. Parallel forms appear in bargh, barf, barrow, burrow, berry, from OE. beorg (:—berg) hill, and burgh, borough, burrow, bury, Brough, (bʊrf, brʊf), from OE. burg town.]" (Oxford English Dictionary, "dwarf".)
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Robin wrote:
Thu Jul 15, 2021 1:49 am
However, I went to the provided reference for this claim, and while it does say that the "Old English plural dweorgas became Middle English dwarrows", it does not say that Tolkien himself made this claim.
Tolkien wrote being "afraid" the plural "dwarves" "is just a piece of private bad grammar, rather shocking in a philologist" and that "[t]he real 'historical' plural of dwarf [...] is dwarrows, anyway" in the following letters:
J.R.R. Tolkien wrote:"No reviewer (that I have seen), although all have carefully used the correct dwarfs themselves, has commented on the fact (which I only became conscious of through reviews) that I use throughout the 'incorrect' plural dwarves. I am afraid it is just a piece of private bad grammar, rather shocking in a philologist; but I shall have to go on with it. Perhaps my dwarf – since he and the Gnome are only translations into approximate equivalents of creatures with different names and rather different functions in their own world – may be allowed a peculiar plural. The real 'historical' plural of dwarf (like teeth of tooth) is dwarrows, anyway: rather a nice word, but a bit too archaic. Still I rather wish I had used the word dwarrow." (The Letters of JRR Tolkien, Letter # 17 To Stanley Unwin, Chairman of Allen and Unwin)
J.R.R. Tolkien wrote:“And why dwarves? Grammar prescribes dwarfs; philology suggests that dwarrows would be the historical form. The real answer is that I knew no better. But dwarves goes well with elves; and, in any case, elf, gnome, goblin, dwarf are only approximate translations of the Old Elvish names for beings of not quite the same kinds and functions.
These dwarves are not quite the dwarfs of better known lore. They have been given Scandinavian names, it is true; but that is an editorial concession. Too many names in the tongues proper to the period might have been alarming. Dwarvish was both complicated and cacophonous. Even early elvish philologists avoided it, and the dwarves were obliged to use other languages, except for entirely private conversations. The language of hobbits was remarkably like English, as one would expect: they only lived on the borders of The Wild, and were mostly unaware of it. Their family names remain for the most part as well known and justly respected in this island as they were in Hobbiton and Bywater.” (The Letters of JRR Tolkien, Letter # 25 To the editor of the Observer)
And in this appendix of The Lord of the Rings:
J.R.R. Tolkien wrote:"It may be observed that in this book as in The Hobbit the form dwarves is used, although the dictionaries tell us that the plural of dwarf is dwarfs. It should be dwarrows (or dwerrows), if singular and plural had each gone its own way down the years, as have man and men, or goose and geese. But we no longer speak of a dwarf as often as we do of a man, or even of a goose, and memories have not been fresh enough among Men to keep hold of a special plural for a race now abandoned to folk-tales, where at least a shadow of truth is preserved, or at last to nonsense stories in which they have become mere figures of fun. But in the Third Age something of their old character and power is still glimpsed, if already a little dimmed; these are the descendents of the Naugrim of the Elder Days, in whose hearts still burns ancient fire of Aule the Smith, and the embers smolder of their long grudge against the Elves; and in whose hands still lives the skill in work of stone that none have surpassed.
It is to mark this that I have ventured to use the form dwarves, and remove them perhaps, from the sillier tales of these latter days. dwarrows would have been better; but I have used that form only in the name Dwarrowdelf, to represent the name of Moria in the Common Speech: Phurunargian. For that meant 'Dwarf-delving' and yet was already a word of antique form." (J.R.R. TOLKIEN, "Appendix F", Return of the King.)

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Totsuzenheni Yukimi wrote:
Thu Jul 15, 2021 7:52 am
Capitaneus Fractus wrote:
Wed Jul 14, 2021 4:38 pm
The use of "dwarves", as a plural of dwarf, is "a piece of private bad grammar", to quote J.R.R. Tolkien, that is paradoxically more commonly used for the Middle Earth (in imitation to the plural of elf in elves).
From what i read, J.R.R. Tolkien was referring to his own use of the plural 'dwarves' and the adjective 'dwarvish' in The Hobbit, so there's nothing paradoxical about that plural and that adjective being used either in reference to, or in J.R.R. Tolkien's works.
When Tolkien (hence his δόξα, id est his opinion) state that the plural "dwarves" "is just a piece of private bad grammar, rather shocking in a philologist" and that "dwarrows would have been better" because "philology suggests that dwarrows would be the historical form", then the use of "dwarves" for the Middle Earth appears to me to be, by definition, paradoxical: that is to say, aside (παρά) the said opinion (δόξα).

This paradox is, retrospectively, justified by Tolkien in this letter:
J.R.R. Tolkien wrote:"I am under the difficulty of finding English names for mythological creatures with other names, since people would not 'take' astring of Elvish names, and I would rather they took my legendary creatures even with the false associations of the 'translation' than not at all. Even the dwarfs are not really Germanic 'dwarfs' (Zwerge, dweorgas, dvergar), and I call them 'dwarves' to mark that. They are not naturally evil, not necessarily hostile, and not a kind of maggot-folk bred in stone; but a variety of incarnate rational creature. The istari are translated 'wizards' because of the connexion of 'wizard' with wise and so with 'witting' and knowing. They are actually emissaries from the True West, and so mediately from God, sent precisely to strengthen the resistance of the 'good', when the Valar become aware that the shadow of Sauron is taking shape again." (The Letters of JRR Tolkien, Letter # 156, draft to Robert Murray, SJ.)

Re: Beyond The Enemy Within campaign, upcoming releases

Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2021 8:39 am
by adambeyoncelowe
I'm looking forward to the new stuff!

Re: Beyond The Enemy Within campaign, upcoming releases

Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2021 11:15 am
by Rangdo
The latest production update announced a book on Salzenmund, which should be interesting. The north coast never got enough love outside of APW.

Re: Beyond The Enemy Within campaign, upcoming releases

Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2021 11:46 am
by FasterThanJesus
I saw the cryptic post last week, which mentioned the something about the Sea Claws. I was wondering if it was implying the adventure to The New World was in the offing, but it's likely a reference to the Salzenmund book mentioned (unless they're linked...).