Enemy Within Updates (plus other stuff)

The enemy lurks in shadows
Capitaneus Fractus
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On Boris Todbringer, I would had preferred to get the following path in order to get settings agree:
Spoiler
Emperor Heinrich Karl Valten Boris Franz Todbringer of the blood of Sigmar, by the grace of Gods, graf of Middenheim and count consort of Nuln, "call me Heinrich", could fit being the trinary character that replace WFB's heroic Karl Franz, WFB's vigorous and heroic Boris Todbringer and, obviously, Sigmar reincarnated Valten... following their respective WFB's stories as an unique character. He would be the graf of Middenheim who happen to lost one of his eyes to a beastman brigand.

After few years of very energetic rule, Emperor Heinrich Todbringer hence follows the doom of Valten: grievously injured during the Chaos invasion, he is murdered by skavens. That might be covered by WFRP3's Enemy Within.

At Heinrich's death:
-Wulfram Todbringer become the regent of Middenheim, in the name Heinrich's legitimate son: Boris. Boris is way too young to be elected emperor.
-widow Emmanuella Liebewitz stay countess of Nuln. She spouses Olaf Sketliebe as second husband and become consort of Suddenland.
-Luitpold's son or younger brother, Karl Franz, is elected emperor. The house of Reikland receive, once again, the imperial dignity, under an emperor who is also quite more energic than was his father or grandfather, Karl Franz the First.

It would give this timeline:

2513 -- Empire in Flammes/Empire in Ruins. Karl Franz I is assassinated during EIF's plot. Heinrich X is elected emperor after the civil war.
2516 -- The Empire stands on the brink of civil war as Theoderic Gausser -- the Elector Count of Nordland -- seeks to enact his territorial ambitions against neighbouring Hochland. The Emperor asks Balthasar Gelt to intervene on his behalf, and the Supreme Patriarch travels to Nordland's capital of Castle Salzenmund.
2517 -- In Reikland, Heinrich personally leads an army into Bloodpine Woods to purge its Forest Goblin threat. At the Battle of Bloodpine Woods, the Empire is victorious and the Spiderclaw Tribe is eradicated.
2518 -- Heinrich purges Drakwald of Beastmen and personally takes the eye of Khazrak at the Battle of Elsterweld.
2519 -- Khazrak takes out Todbringer's right eye in an ambush outside Norderingen. The Emperor offers a 10,000-crown reward on Khazrak's head.
2522 -- WFRP3's Enemy Within. Heinrich X dies during TEW's plot. Karl Franz II is elected. Early parts of Path of the Damned.
2523 -- Early parts of Path of the Damned.Terror in Talabheim, The Thousand Thrones.
Veniam, Duelli Malleum, phantasticum ludum personae uidebo, in fera terra periculosorum aduenturorum ludebam.
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Karanthir
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FasterThanJesus wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 5:34 pm
One quote possibly interesting to some people:

"The Storm of Chaos campaign focused on Middenheim and the Cult of Ulric. Boris Todbringer had been represented by this time as a somewhat more heroic and vigorous man who had lost his eye to the Beastlord Khazrak One-Eye. Tying this to the Red Crown, who have an important headquarters in Middenheim according to Death on the Reik, seemed logical. The successor to Ar-Ulric and several other characters who might be somewhat, shall we say, compromised by the end of Power Behind the Throne was also made clear around this time, so an appendix on how Middenheim’s government changed between 2512 IC and 2522 IC is included in the book."

Is this where we're going to start seeing a lot more smoothing out of the settings?
Interesting to see mention of The Storm of Chaos, given that there have been references to The End Times scattered in other publications. It doesn't really seem possible to have both as canon, unless they fiddle with the timeline a bit and have SoC as a prelude to ET.
Capitaneus Fractus wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 6:17 am
On Boris Todbringer, I would had preferred to get the following path in order to get settings agree:
Spoiler
Just to say that WFRP3's The Enemy Within is set at the outset of a Chaos invasion, which is successfully defended against, so it doesn't cover the things you mentioned.
Capitaneus Fractus
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I thought it did. It wasn't translated in France (or, more exactly, the French translation which was done never get GW's imprimatur [nor even GW's refusal]).
Thank you for your correction.
Spoiler
I thought that this outset of a Chaos invasion was the outset of the Storm of Chaos... Isn't Storm of Chaos a Chaos invasion which is successfully defended against?

The Storm of Chaos continued to shatter through the lands of Men and Archaon eventually reached the great city of the White Wolf; Middenheim. Upon arrival the Chaos Horde began to lay siege to the city. However they were soon forced to lift the siege because of the impending arrival of the armies of Bretonnia, Kislev, Karl Franz, and also the Greenskins.

The armies of the empire, led by Valten, met the hordes of chaos in a massive battle to decide the fate of the realm. The two great armies ravaged each other and soon Valten and Archaon found themselves face to face. Valten slew Archaon's steed with a mighty blow from the hammer of Sigmar as retribution for the Chaos hordes slaying his own steed with a blast from a cannon. Archaon dismounted and the duel began. The champions battle long and hard but eventually Archaon gained the upper hand. With a blow from his dameon blade he struck Valten and tore through his armor. Upon this the Lord Of the Endtimes saw the birthmark upon the warrior's chest and backed away in horror. Luthor Huss saw this as an opportunity and assaulted the shocked Chaos champion and dealt several blows towards him. Archaon hit the Huss with his right hand and sent him flying over the battlefield. Immediately after this the Orc Warlord Grimgor Ironhide saw this as an opportunity to prove his supremacy and assaulted Archaon. Upon seeing their own allies turn upon them, the Chaos army began to falter. The Orc defeated Archaon but did not slay him, instead Grimgor stood triumphant over the Everchosen and proclaimed "Grimgor iz da best!". After this defeat the Chaos Warlord led his army in a retreat.
[it should be noted that after such defeat, the Everchosen should be muted into a chaos spawn]
https://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/Storm_of_Chaos

WFRP2's The Path of the Damned campaign happen after the Storm of Chaos, after Chaos forces were defeated
Karanthir wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 3:10 am
Interesting to see mention of The Storm of Chaos, given that there have been references to The End Times scattered in other publications. It doesn't really seem possible to have both as canon, unless they fiddle with the timeline a bit and have SoC as a prelude to ET.
Both WFB's Storm of Chaos and The End Times are anyway way too childish, too immature to be directly transposed to the Role playing game... Precise details that were published for WFB do not really matters and would have to be quite heavily rewritten to be of any use in the Role playing game. So, hopefully, they'll fiddle with the timeline and other aspect of the Chaos invasion... and not "a bit" only...
Veniam, Duelli Malleum, phantasticum ludum personae uidebo, in fera terra periculosorum aduenturorum ludebam.
dry_erase
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Capitaneus Fractus wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 5:26 am
Both WFB's Storm of Chaos and The End Times are anyway way too childish, too immature to be directly transposed to the Role playing game... Precise details that were published for WFB do not really matters and would have to be quite heavily rewritten to be of any use in the Role playing game. So, hopefully, they'll fiddle with the timeline and other aspect of the Chaos invasion... and not "a bit" only...
I think we can make a distinction between the events of Storm of Chaos and The End Times (and Storm of Magic) for that matter) and the background details that they included.

The timeline is of limited use to a GM who wants to run a campaign where players have agency and a sense of purpose. But the setting details from Storm of Chaos and The End Times ... locations, personalities, historical events... are rich pickings for WFRP-suitable material. The grand sweep of both campaigns meant that many small details get little more than hints, which can be expanded to make interesting, and often lower fantasy, inspiration for WFRP. The GM can decide whether those background details play out as described in WFB campaigns or not.
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Karanthir
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Capitaneus Fractus wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 5:26 am
I thought it did. It wasn't translated in France (or, more exactly, the French translation which was done never get GW's imprimatur [nor even GW's refusal]).
Thank you for your correction.
Spoiler
I thought that this outset of a Chaos invasion was the outset of the Storm of Chaos... Isn't Storm of Chaos a Chaos invasion which is successfully defended against?

[...]

WFRP2's The Path of the Damned campaign happen after the Storm of Chaos, after Chaos forces were defeated
Apologies for being vague. It's a bit tricky to fit the events of WFRP3's The Enemy Within into the official canon, especially when trying to reconcile SoC and ET. It features Surtha Lenk's Spring Driving, which was the prelude to the Storm of Chaos, which took place in 2521. However, TEW is set in 2522 (it says Marius Leifdorf died two years previously, and the calendar at the back of the book is for 2522). The End Times started in 2522, which would fit better with the year of TEW, but I'm not sure if the Spring Driving was ever part of that. It's also worth noting that TEW was published in 2012, after SoC had been retconned out of existence by GW, but before the publication of anything to with the ET (as far as I'm aware). It's possible that GW were already sowing the seeds for ET at that time, but other than that I'm not sure what FFG's intention was in how TEW would fit with official GW canon as of 2012.

Jackdays has done a pretty good job of integrating TEW into either SoC or ET. If you're interested, I'd recommend checking out his timelines at the bottom of this page: https://www.kalevalahammer.com/p/universal-rules.html
Capitaneus Fractus wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 5:26 am
Both WFB's Storm of Chaos and The End Times are anyway way too childish, too immature to be directly transposed to the Role playing game... Precise details that were published for WFB do not really matters and would have to be quite heavily rewritten to be of any use in the Role playing game. So, hopefully, they'll fiddle with the timeline and other aspect of the Chaos invasion... and not "a bit" only...
dry_erase wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 6:22 am
I think we can make a distinction between the events of Storm of Chaos and The End Times (and Storm of Magic) for that matter) and the background details that they included.

The timeline is of limited use to a GM who wants to run a campaign where players have agency and a sense of purpose. But the setting details from Storm of Chaos and The End Times ... locations, personalities, historical events... are rich pickings for WFRP-suitable material. The grand sweep of both campaigns meant that many small details get little more than hints, which can be expanded to make interesting, and often lower fantasy, inspiration for WFRP. The GM can decide whether those background details play out as described in WFB campaigns or not.
Personally, I certainly hope they don't bring the End Times into WFRP. I have no interest in the Warhammer world ending. Storm of Chaos as it originally played out wasn't great, but I'm not adverse to the idea of some kind of reworked version being done by C7 as a background link between their TEW and WFRP2 materials.
Zisse
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End Times are mentioned in C7 books already. Wasn't the overall plan for WFRP4 to marry the setting of WFRP1/TEW-org with the ET?

I agree, though. I am not looking forward to the ET.
mormegil
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The End Times start approximately 2519 and last approximately 10 years.

If we take into account that TEW starts 2512, then we have 7 years till the End Times. There is too much material that you can fit in such a big timeline. Even inside the End Times you can find great adventure.

That being said, I am totally against the popular notion that TEW is low fantasy.
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Karanthir
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mormegil wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 2:31 am
The End Times start approximately 2519 and last approximately 10 years.

If we take into account that TEW starts 2512, then we have 7 years till the End Times. There is too much material that you can fit in such a big timeline. Even inside the End Times you can find great adventure.

That being said, I am totally against the popular notion that TEW is low fantasy.
FWIW, for me it's not about low fantasy vs high fantasy. Warhammer has always had plenty of elements of both. I just don't see the need to literally end the world. Hence why I prefer Storm of Chaos to End Times if we must have one or the other (though again, personally I'd rather not have either).
Zisse wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 11:50 pm
End Times are mentioned in C7 books already. Wasn't the overall plan for WFRP4 to marry the setting of WFRP1/TEW-org with the ET?

I agree, though. I am not looking forward to the ET.
Yep, that's what makes this new reference to the Storm of Chaos so surprising.

I suppose one way for C7 to have their apocalyptic cake and eat it too would be to have Archaon invade and have inhabitants of the Old World assume it's the End Times even if it isn't. I think this terminology was even used around the time of the original Storm of Chaos campaign. How they actually resolve it all though is anyone's guess at this point.
Last edited by Karanthir on Tue Nov 17, 2020 8:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
dry_erase
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Karanthir wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 3:22 am
I just don't see the need to literally end the world.
This is the crux of it for me - we can draw on the locations and NPCs that the End Times, Storm of Chaos, Dark Shadows, Nemesis Crown, Storm of Magic, Lustria Campaign etc. gave us. But I don't see the point in ending the world for players and GMs.

But I think an optional setting sourcebook for campaigning in the End Times would be interesting for many people.
Karanthir wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 3:22 am
Yep, that's what makes this new reference to the Storm of Chaos so surprising.
My expectation is that this is about drawing on material that the Storm of Chaos introduced for Middenheim etc. (e.g. Boris Todbringer as more warlike than in WFRP1 material) and then presenting a possible future for the city after the events of TEW. I expect it's up to the GM whether they want that to play out or not in their own game.
Herr Arnulfe
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Karanthir wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 3:22 am
I suppose one way for C7 to have their apocalyptic cake and eat it too would be to have Archaon invade and have inhabitants of the Old World assume it's the End Times even if it isn't. I think this terminology was even used around the time of the original Storm of Chaos campaign. How they actually resolve it all though is anyone's guess at this point.
The Storm of Chaos was just the first stage of the End Times, to shatter the Empire's northern defenses. In the old Realms of Chaos books, the apocalypse was described as a long, gradual process. So the WFB 8e End Times campaign was right to spread it over 10 years IMO (even though it ultimately ended with a big explosion :) ). RPG campaigns set during that 10-year period wouldn't necessarily have to be wartime campaigns. The players might even forget that they're living through an apocalypse.
Theo
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My preferred fix for the personality change of Boris Todbringer from 1E to 2E is simple: in the "canonical" timeline, Wasmeier's plot was successful and the Graf was actually replaced by an imposter. Thus they seem like very different people for the simple reason that they are different people.

I suspect they won't go with that, though. :)
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Karanthir
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dry_erase wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:27 am
This is the crux of it for me - we can draw on the locations and NPCs that the End Times, Storm of Chaos, Dark Shadows, Nemesis Crown, Storm of Magic, Lustria Campaign etc. gave us. But I don't see the point in ending the world for players and GMs.

But I think an optional setting sourcebook for campaigning in the End Times would be interesting for many people.

My expectation is that this is about drawing on material that the Storm of Chaos introduced for Middenheim etc. (e.g. Boris Todbringer as more warlike than in WFRP1 material) and then presenting a possible future for the city after the events of TEW. I expect it's up to the GM whether they want that to play out or not in their own game.
Herr Arnulfe wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:36 am
In the old Realms of Chaos books, the apocalypse was described as a long, gradual process. So the WFB 8e End Times campaign was right to spread it over 10 years IMO (even though it ultimately ended with a big explosion :) ). RPG campaigns set during that 10-year period wouldn't necessarily have to be wartime campaigns. The players might even forget that they're living through an apocalypse.
Of course, I don't really object to C7 building on any of that, just wanted to say that it's not to my personal taste. I suppose any RPG supplement can ultimately be considered 'optional' in that no one from GW/C7 is going to come and sit at your gaming table and force you to play games set during the End Times. ;)
Herr Arnulfe wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:36 am
The Storm of Chaos was just the first stage of the End Times, to shatter the Empire's northern defenses.
Well, technically SoC doesn't happen in the End Times timeline, but I suspect C7 would go with something along these lines if they want to reconcile the two.
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Karanthir
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Theo wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 7:35 am
My preferred fix for the personality change of Boris Todbringer from 1E to 2E is simple: in the "canonical" timeline, Wasmeier's plot was successful and the Graf was actually replaced by an imposter. Thus they seem like very different people for the simple reason that they are different people.

I suspect they won't go with that, though. :)
I think it can be good when NPCs' plots work sometimes, so no objection to that solution. My solution (for the personality changes of both Boris Todbringer and Karl-Franz) would be even simpler: they are different men after the events of TEW than they were before. Not literally, but rather in how they have been affected by what happened. Averting a major crisis of the Empire has given them each a new perspective on how to rule.
Herr Arnulfe
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Karanthir wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 8:22 am
Well, technically SoC doesn't happen in the End Times timeline, but I suspect C7 would go with something along these lines if they want to reconcile the two.
I thought Archaon's 2522 IC invasion of Kislev in the ET campaign was essentially an "alternative SoC" that followed a more classic Chaos Incursion strategy. So rather than blitzkrieg past Kislev for a "hail mary", Archaon paused in Kislev to consolidate supply lines while Nurgle's followers proceeded to weaken the Empire's defenses.

IMO the reason for Archaon's "blitzkrieg" strategy in the original Storm of Chaos campaign was only because it was a global WFB event. i.e. They had to incorporate all the different armies into a single conflict (which is trickier when the battlefield is Kislev).
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Karanthir
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Yes, alternative SoC is probably a good way to look at it. But the point is that Archaon's ET invasion takes a different course to his SoC invasion, and involved different leaders of Chaos forces. Likewise, the activities of some of the Imperial leaders are different (e.g. Volkmar going to Sylvannia instead of Kislev). The two are basically different canonical versions of the Warhammer world, in the same way as the events of Empire in Flames don't line up canonically with anything published since. There is the Warhammer world in which Storm of Chaos happened, and there is the Warhammer world in which the End Times happened, but at the moment they can't be same world. It seems as though C7 might be attempting to reconcile both sets of events though. A sensible approach would be to have Archaon unsuccessfully invade in 2521-2, and then invade with more success later in 2522 (or 2523/4 - if they're changing things anyway I'm sure they can fudge the timeline a bit).
Herr Arnulfe
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Karanthir wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 3:09 am
Yes, alternative SoC is probably a good way to look at it. But the point is that Archaon's ET invasion takes a different course to his SoC invasion, and involved different leaders of Chaos forces. Likewise, the activities of some of the Imperial leaders are different (e.g. Volkmar going to Sylvannia instead of Kislev). The two are basically different canonical versions of the Warhammer world, in the same way as the events of Empire in Flames don't line up canonically with anything published since. There is the Warhammer world in which Storm of Chaos happened, and there is the Warhammer world in which the End Times happened, but at the moment they can't be same world. It seems as though C7 might be attempting to reconcile both sets of events though. A sensible approach would be to have Archaon unsuccessfully invade in 2521-2, and then invade with more success later in 2522 (or 2523/4 - if they're changing things anyway I'm sure they can fudge the timeline a bit).
Ah, I see what you mean. Given the sheer size of the End Times campaign for WFB, I suspect a WFRP ET sourcebook would be more like an "apocalypse toolbox" than a rehash of the whole WFB event timeline. A 256-page sourcebook might cover the 10 years of End Times background in limited geographic scope e.g. the Reikland, or maybe the Empire in very broad strokes. But that would be missing the point of the End Times campaign IMO. The WFB version was designed as a "gilded coffin" for the Warhammer Fantasy setting, written to tie up every loose end in the canon (and it served that purpose admirably). However, I can't imagine anything duller than playing through a campaign that rehashes all of that alphabet soup on a rigid timeline.
Capitaneus Fractus
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Karanthir wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 3:09 am
The two are basically different canonical versions of the Warhammer world, in the same way as the events of Empire in Flames don't line up canonically with anything published since.
Did it? The first publication that seem to diverge from Empire in Flames is Games Workshop's Warhammer Armies: The Empire (WFB6, 2000): "It is the year 2520 of the Imperial Calendar, and Karl Franz is the ruling Emperor."

Flame's Death's Dark Shadow and Descartes's Pour la gloire d'Ulric were in line with the events of Games Workshop's
Spoiler
(both take place in 2515 under the rule of the emperor Heinrich Todbringer).
Other publications made Flame and Hogshead didn't contradicted events of Empire in Flames.
Last edited by Capitaneus Fractus on Wed Nov 18, 2020 10:27 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Herr Arnulfe
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Capitaneus Fractus wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 5:11 am
The first publication that diverge from Empire in Flames is Warhammer Armies: The Empire (WFB6, 2000): "It is the year 2520 of the Imperial Calendar, and Karl Franz is the ruling Emperor."
The WFB 4e Empire army book (1993) had Karl Franz as Emperor from 2502 IC.
Capitaneus Fractus
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Herr Arnulfe wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 5:30 am
Capitaneus Fractus wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 5:11 am
The first publication that diverge from Empire in Flames is Warhammer Armies: The Empire (WFB6, 2000): "It is the year 2520 of the Imperial Calendar, and Karl Franz is the ruling Emperor."
The WFB 4e Empire army book (1993) had Karl Franz as Emperor from 2502 IC.
Which is in line with Empire in Flames (and with The Enemy Within too on that aspect), were Karl-Franz is also emperor from 2502 IC.
(It was Boxtree Books' timeline which had Karl Franz as Emperor from 2491 IC.)
Last edited by Capitaneus Fractus on Wed Nov 18, 2020 6:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Herr Arnulfe
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Capitaneus Fractus wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 5:40 am
Which is in line with Empire in Flames (and with The Enemy Within too on that aspect), were Karl-Franz is also emperor from 2502 IC.
Ah true, although Emperor Heinrich Todbringer was never mentioned after Empire in Flames (well, maybe once in passing). The Enemy Within campaign wasn't Big Canon, it was just one possible course of events. So you're right that Empire in Flames wasn't contradicted, but nor did any of its developments stick in the canon long-term. That's why the Storm of Chaos/End Times timelines shouldn't be applied too rigidly to the RPG either IMO - they were WFB events designed for a specific purpose at a specific time.
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