Origins of the Gods.

Cubicle 7 // 2018
mormegil
Posts: 37
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:48 am

Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:32 am

I am not sure that Godhood in Warhammer is the same as other RPGs. One of the essential parts of Godhood is to provide divine power and/or magic to their followers.

The Ancestor Gods do not provide any kind of magic for the Dwarves, which appears to be the most secular society. They seem to venerate their Gods due to significance mostly.

The Elves also do not hold divine magic given from Gods, but they use their own developed magic. I tend to believe Elven Gods are ancestral Gods in a way.

For Humans, as always, things are more complicated. The divine casters are not spellcasters as their arcane counterparts, but seems that through sheer will, they manage to order the winds of magic to perform miracles. Their gods look alike Gods from other species and I feel a subtle hint that they are the same with different name.

Enter the Old Ones, far superior beings and makers of the world and we may have our answers for the origins of the Gods.
Karanthir
Posts: 61
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 3:30 am

Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:31 am

I thought the whole "warp amalgamation" and "all gods are really the Chaos gods in disguise" things came up in a 2nd edition book (Realms of Sorcery or Tome of Corruption maybe?). But it's the edition I'm least familiar with, so perhaps it was just a fan idea that was popular in the zeitgeist of the general GW community around that time. Personally I never liked that idea (not even Khaine = Khorne).

One of the great things about the gods of the Warhammer world is that their origins and natures are left vague enough that seemingly endless interpretations are possible. Everyone has their own ideas and can point to something in one book or another from any edition that will support their theory.
Capitaneus Fractus
Posts: 32
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:41 am

Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:40 am

That "fan" was Bryan Ansell and Rick Priestley, actually. Not really a "fan", nor two "fans" I would say.

To answer to your thought, well, that isn't the case: all gods are not Chaos gods in disguise ! All gods come from realms of Chaos (more simply knows as warp), that is quite different... There is a clear distinction between the Realms of Chaos (the immaterial world) and Chaotic things -such as gods-: every living things and even every material things in the material world are reflected in the warp. Which mean that every man, every dwarf, every elf, every deer, every oak, every mushroom, every rock, every grass is... It obviously doesn't mean that every living things and every material things are Chaotic things.

Gods aren't amalgamation of warp but amalgamation of souls in the warp. There again, it is different.

Chaos gods aren't defined by the purpose of being in the warp as everything is reflected in the warp... Chaos gods are defined by being feed from the very chaotic emotions that some (well many... I mean, most) souls in the warp happen to produce, from time to time...

It was so since WFRP1 and WFB3 -since the chaos was a bit defined in Warhammer Fantasy when they decided to expand this universe with Warhammer 40.000 (and this decision to expand the universe of the Warhammer Fantasy world to intergalactic battles root back to the publication of the first Citadel Compidium in 1983!- as you can see with the sources I previously gave, among some other sources). This setting is still stated after that, in later editions of WFB and WFRP.

Divine magic is not "unrelated to the realm of chaos" as we can see in the WFRP1 and WFB3 source I gave but as we can found in latter source such as WFRP2 ("Sometimes a miracle is blinding for onlookers with Magical Sense, as the appropriate God or perhaps one of his servants appears to manifest in the local Aethyr;" Tome of Salvation, WFRP2, p. 214. Aethyr being one of the many other name of realms of Chaos).
Last edited by Capitaneus Fractus on Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
Veniam, Duelli Malleum, phantasticum ludum personae uidebo, in fera terra periculosorum aduenturorum ludebam.
Theo
Posts: 64
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 3:25 pm

Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:04 am

Orin J. wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:19 pm
Theo wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:55 pm
Regarding the Lovecraftian influence on Warhammer's Chaos, I'd say it's mostly indirect - by way of the Call of Cthulhu RPG, mostly. Shadows Over Bogenhafen, which became an extremely influential and tone-setting WFRP adventure-
...what?

like, seriously, what? it bored everyone to tears whenever any group i knew tried to run through it. fun read, but terrible adventure.
Sorry to hear that. Still, my point wasn't about its quality but about how influential it was. I didn't think it would be a controversial statement that SoB became a template for a lot of subsequent WFRP adventures?
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Orin J.
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Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:49 pm

Simply can't see the influence, is all- it's far from the first time someone made a roleplaying campaign around something other than a dungeon crawl.
Karanthir
Posts: 61
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 3:30 am

Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:47 am

Capitaneus Fractus wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:40 am
That "fan" was Bryan Ansell and Rick Priestley, actually. Not really a "fan", nor two "fans" I would say.

To answer to your thought, well, that isn't the case: all gods are not Chaos gods in disguise ! All gods come from realms of Chaos (more simply knows as warp), that is quite different... There is a clear distinction between the Realms of Chaos (the immaterial world) and Chaotic things -such as gods-: every living things and even every material things in the material world are reflected in the warp. Which mean that every man, every dwarf, every elf, every deer, every oak, every mushroom, every rock, every grass is... It obviously doesn't mean that every living things and every material things are Chaotic things.

Gods aren't amalgamation of warp but amalgamation of souls in the warp. There again, it is different.

Chaos gods aren't defined by the purpose of being in the warp as everything is reflected in the warp... Chaos gods are defined by being feed from the very chaotic emotions that some (well many... I mean, most) souls in the warp happen to produce, from time to time...

It was so since WFRP1 and WFB3 -since the chaos was a bit defined in Warhammer Fantasy when they decided to expand this universe with Warhammer 40.000 (and this decision to expand the universe of the Warhammer Fantasy world to intergalactic battles root back to the publication of the first Citadel Compidium in 1983!- as you can see with the sources I previously gave, among some other sources). This setting is still stated after that, in later editions of WFB and WFRP.
You're probably right about all this (it's been a while since I read the Realm of Chaos books to be honest). I think it was toned down a lot in later editions of WFB when they were trying to make it a more independent setting (e.g. various statements that the Warhammer world is not in the 40k galaxy - but even this is something the official source have gone back and forth on over time) even if it had the same Chaos and Elf/Eldar gods as 40k. So, I'm wondering if this has ever been explicitly stated to be the case in books from the more recent editions of WFRP (or WFB for that matter). Especially:
Capitaneus Fractus wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:40 am
Gods aren't amalgamation of warp but amalgamation of souls in the warp. There again, it is different.
Is this really how it works for the non-Chaos gods? What about Sigmar? If he 'ascended' to godhood, what does that mean? What about the Dwarf ancestor-gods?
Capitaneus Fractus wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:40 am
that isn't the case: all gods are not Chaos gods in disguise ! All gods come from realms of Chaos (more simply knows as warp), that is quite different
Right, that almost certainly was just fan-speculation then (because it's definitely something I've seen discussed). I was wondering if it had an official source, but probably not.
Capitaneus Fractus wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:40 am
Divine magic is not "unrelated to the realm of chaos" as we can see in the WFRP1 and WFB3 source I gave but as we can found in latter source such as WFRP2 ("Sometimes a miracle is blinding for onlookers with Magical Sense, as the appropriate God or perhaps one of his servants appears to manifest in the local Aethyr;" Tome of Salvation, WFRP2, p. 214. Aethyr being one of the many other name of realms of Chaos).
This is a slightly separate issue. Personally I like the idea that divine magic is somehow related to the winds of magic. My own preference is that there's definitely more to magic than Teclis has told humanity, otherwise how do you explain magic than comes from elsewhere than the eight winds (e.g. hedge magic and Kislevite ice magic, or even Dwarf runic magic)? I haven't really figured out my own answer yet, but I feel like Elven High Magic is one way of manipulating the winds of magic (or aethyr/warp/Realm of Chaos if you prefer); divine magic is another way, and there's all sorts of other ways floating around too.
Capitaneus Fractus
Posts: 32
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:41 am

Wed Aug 28, 2019 1:22 am

Karanthir wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:47 am
Capitaneus Fractus wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:40 am
That "fan" was Bryan Ansell and Rick Priestley, actually. Not really a "fan", nor two "fans" I would say.

To answer to your thought, well, that isn't the case: all gods are not Chaos gods in disguise ! All gods come from realms of Chaos (more simply knows as warp), that is quite different... There is a clear distinction between the Realms of Chaos (the immaterial world) and Chaotic things -such as gods-: every living things and even every material things in the material world are reflected in the warp. Which mean that every man, every dwarf, every elf, every deer, every oak, every mushroom, every rock, every grass is... It obviously doesn't mean that every living things and every material things are Chaotic things.

Gods aren't amalgamation of warp but amalgamation of souls in the warp. There again, it is different.

Chaos gods aren't defined by the purpose of being in the warp as everything is reflected in the warp... Chaos gods are defined by being feed from the very chaotic emotions that some (well many... I mean, most) souls in the warp happen to produce, from time to time...

It was so since WFRP1 and WFB3 -since the chaos was a bit defined in Warhammer Fantasy when they decided to expand this universe with Warhammer 40.000 (and this decision to expand the universe of the Warhammer Fantasy world to intergalactic battles root back to the publication of the first Citadel Compidium in 1983!- as you can see with the sources I previously gave, among some other sources). This setting is still stated after that, in later editions of WFB and WFRP.
You're probably right about all this (it's been a while since I read the Realm of Chaos books to be honest). I think it was toned down a lot in later editions of WFB when they were trying to make it a more independent setting (e.g. various statements that the Warhammer world is not in the 40k galaxy - but even this is something the official source have gone back and forth on over time) even if it had the same Chaos and Elf/Eldar gods as 40k. So, I'm wondering if this has ever been explicitly stated to be the case in books from the more recent editions of WFRP (or WFB for that matter).
Yes, after that Bryan Ansell leaved Games Workshop, the policy on the Warhammer Fantasy World being a tiny but significant planet of the Warhammer 40.000 universe was to keep issuing small hints that it is the case while not making anything explicit about it and avoiding to state it officially nor even to talk about that point.

Karanthir wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:47 am
Especially:
Capitaneus Fractus wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:40 am
Gods aren't amalgamation of warp but amalgamation of souls in the warp. There again, it is different.
Is this really how it works for the non-Chaos gods? What about Sigmar? If he 'ascended' to godhood, what does that mean? What about the Dwarf ancestor-gods?
Sigmar, the man, have a soul, like any material things, which is reflected within the Warp. When living in the material world, his soul was strengthened by Imperial men' souls having faith in him. When dying, the faith that Imperial men' souls continued to have in him, not only as a man but as a would-be god, contributed to the apparition, within the warp, of a creature who is Sigmar the god and who certainly was constituted around the soul of Sigmar the man (albeit it isn't necessary).
Karanthir wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:47 am
Capitaneus Fractus wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:40 am
that isn't the case: all gods are not Chaos gods in disguise ! All gods come from realms of Chaos (more simply knows as warp), that is quite different
Right, that almost certainly was just fan-speculation then (because it's definitely something I've seen discussed). I was wondering if it had an official source, but probably not.
Capitaneus Fractus wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:40 am
Divine magic is not "unrelated to the realm of chaos" as we can see in the WFRP1 and WFB3 source I gave but as we can found in latter source such as WFRP2 ("Sometimes a miracle is blinding for onlookers with Magical Sense, as the appropriate God or perhaps one of his servants appears to manifest in the local Aethyr;" Tome of Salvation, WFRP2, p. 214. Aethyr being one of the many other name of realms of Chaos).
This is a slightly separate issue. Personally I like the idea that divine magic is somehow related to the winds of magic. My own preference is that there's definitely more to magic than Teclis has told humanity [...] I haven't really figured out my own answer yet, but I feel like Elven High Magic is one way of manipulating the winds of magic (or aethyr/warp/Realm of Chaos if you prefer); divine magic is another way, and there's all sorts of other ways floating around too.
Another of the many parts which quite explicitly show that "divine magic" allegedly being "unrelated to the realm of chaos" certainly isn't "establishes fairly thoroughly" -quite the contrary- is Realms of Sorcery, WFRP2, p. 15-16, which is summarized by this notice: "The GM should bear in mind that [no good citizen of the Empire] would associate the Realm of Chaos or the hells of the Dark Gods with the Divine Realms of the Empire's more wholesome Gods [...] Few would think that good Gods and bad Gods come into existence and reside in the same metaphysical plane" and "Few [...] identify the Divine Realms or Morr's Limbo as being the same place, state, or thing as the Aethyr that the Empire's magisters sometime refears to as the source of their power".
Karanthir wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:47 am
otherwise how do you explain magic than comes from elsewhere than the eight winds (e.g. hedge magic and Kislevite ice magic, or even Dwarf runic magic)?
There is an hint in "Earthbound Magic", Realms of Sorcery, WFRP2, p. 39: "Whatever their patterns of dispersal, the Winds of Magic permeate and are absorbed into almost everything in the world with which they come into contact [...] Living tissue can absorb considerable amounts of Aethyric energy, while other materials (sometimes lead, others obsidian) are magical nulls. So with this exception, almost everything that the Winds of Magic touch is saturated by their power to some degree or another, creating an ambient hum of magic everywhere in the Old World [...] Nature itself is warped and changed and the very physical laws that govern reality begin to break down."

For me, this part explain non teclitian Elementalism, Alchemy and magic runes that we had up to WFRP1 and WFB3, hence that we should keep in WFRP4.

The history of magic is that before the collapse of Warp Gates, only psykers (about 1% of the population IIRC) were able to take profit of the warp to influence the material world. With the collapse of those Warp Gates -certainly triggered with the birth of Slaanesh from Eldars' souls- the warp started to flow within Warhammer Fantasy material world. It was the beginning of a broader hedge wizardry. An empiric and instinctive wizardry.

Then did appeared Elementalism, as a more structured -albeit still empirical- magical ideology, which proved being way superior to hedge wizardry (as is stated in Realms of Sorcery, WFRP1). Perhaps that Elementalism was learned from Dwarves whose main magical art, runes, are quite elementalistic too and who had a great cultural influence on the Empire.

Elementalism (and Alchemy which seem quite obviously to be an elemental practice too) might hence drag their magic powers from elements saturated by warp dust. Or, to say it in another way, they use warp whose concentration is reduced by being mixed with material things. What elementalists and alchemists call water, earth, air and fire are probably liquid, solid, gas and plasma state of matter. If so, Kislevite Ice Magic might just be a kind of elementalism in very cold places (ice and snow being frozen solids), albeit Kislevite Ice Magic might also being a divine magic as the title "shaman" of its sorcerers might imply.

So the difference between teclitian sorcerers and non-teclitian elementalists and alchemists might simply be that teclitians sorcerers are able to use pure and refined warp (or, more exactly to use one of the eight separate aspects of pure warp) while non-teclitian elementalists and alchemists use low concentration brut warp (or, more exactly, a mix of various aspects of warp who are "polluted" with the matter it saturate).

There was a novel in the Apocryphia Now, WFRP1, which associated those elemental matters with Chaos. It indeed is quite coherent to have warp, or aether, as a quintessence (literally, in French, "fifth matter"). But this brut warp is very close to dhar, if not simply being dhar... Non teclitian alchemists and elementalists pursuing the research of the quintessence might simply end being dark magic sorcerers... That is what would be an elementalists who specialised himself in chaos immater after all...

Azurs bring to the Old World -and more specifically to the Empire- victory over Chaos Forces during the Great War against the Chaos and the teclitian teaching of wizardry. By ensuring using only one aspect of the warp, teclitian wizardry establish a safeguard which we understand why it was favoured over rustic and even traditional magical arts by the Empire.

Still, there is room for non-teclitian elementalists and alchemists in Warhammer Fantasy!
Veniam, Duelli Malleum, phantasticum ludum personae uidebo, in fera terra periculosorum aduenturorum ludebam.
Knight of the Lady
Posts: 89
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:04 am

Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:38 pm

Capitaneus Fractus wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 1:22 am
Still, there is room for non-teclitian elementalists and alchemists in Warhammer Fantasy!
I am sure there is room. But they had better keep it down or the neighbors may call the collages, or witch hunters, on them.
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Orin J.
Posts: 188
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Thu Sep 05, 2019 5:13 pm

Knight of the Lady wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:38 pm
Capitaneus Fractus wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 1:22 am
Still, there is room for non-teclitian elementalists and alchemists in Warhammer Fantasy!
I am sure there is room. But they had better keep it down or the neighbors may call the collages, or witch hunters, on them.

move to tilea you say? where they don't have witch hunters, and do have warm summers where the women dance in the square and they have frescoes and fountians intead of gibbets and gargoyles? where a wizard can make spells to help the people intead of wage wars and be a respected pillar of the community? who the deuce would do that? ;)
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