Contradiction?

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Rat Catcher
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Sun Sep 08, 2019 6:15 am

I've never seen any commentary on the two seemingly contradictory rules:

Page 93: "Once all the advances in a career have been taken, the character can be considered to have completed the career, and may then select any of the career exits."

Page 93: "The Prospector career has 8 advances. At any stage, however, Ingrid has the option to move onto a second career."

What's your take on this, can you advance only once you've taken all advances, or can you advance at any stage?
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Jackdays
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Sun Sep 08, 2019 7:54 am

Character may change to any Basic Career at anytime (start again). But, if you want to advance to any Advanced Careers, then you need to complete your previous career fully.

It would be more logical, that if you start again, it would cost little more, than finishing fully a career.

Here is a house rule:
- If you have completed your career fully (all the advances) you may enter any careers listed under the Career Exits for 100 EP.
- If you start a new Basic Career without finishing previous one, and this career is from the same Career Chart as previous one, then this costs 200 EP.
- If you start a new Basic Career without finishing previous one, and this career is not from the same Career Chart as previous one, then this costs 300 EP.
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Rat Catcher
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Sun Sep 08, 2019 8:18 am

Jackdays wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 7:54 am
Character may change to any Basic Career at anytime (start again).
But that seems to be the exact opposite of what the rules are saying.

Completing Basic Careers (page 93)
"By filling all the advances on the career advance profile, the character can complete that career"

And again in a paragraph concerning Basic careers:

"Once all the advances in a career have been taken, the character can be considered to have completed the career, and may then select any of the career exits."

That said, the Prospector career is a "Basic" career, but now the rule (again on page 93) suggests you can change whenever you want:

"The Prospector career has 8* advances. At any stage, however, Ingrid has the option to move onto a second career."

* It's actually 7

So within the space of four paragraphs all talking about Basic careers only, there is a contradiction.
Jackdays wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 7:54 am
But, if you want to advance to any Advanced Careers, then you need to complete your previous career fully.
I can't find a rule that mentions this.
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Jackdays
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Sun Sep 08, 2019 8:57 am

If we have the same page numbers read from page 92 under Changing Careers, Breaking Careers, Moving Into No-Scheme Careers. And also from page 94 under Advanced Careers: "... These Advanced careers are not available to newly created player characters, but must be attained through completing a Basic Career."
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Rat Catcher
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Sun Sep 08, 2019 9:08 am

I dis as you asked and it's still making no sense. There's definitely contradictions here and quite a few too.

Page 91 "...characters are not allowed to change careers during a session of play."

Page 92 "Characters may normally change careers at any time, provided they have the 100 ep to do so."

Seems like a contradiction.

Page 93: “By filling all the advances on the career advance profile, the character can complete that career”

Page 93: "Once all the advances in a career have been taken, the character can be considered to have completed the career, and may then select any of the career exits."

Page 93: "The Prospector career has 8 advances. At any stage, however, Ingrid has the option to move onto a second career."

All three rules come under the heading for “Basic” careers but the third seems to contradict the first two.

I'm ruling you can change career whenever you want but it has to make sense in the narrative.
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Jackdays
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Sun Sep 08, 2019 11:08 am

I think the basic idea is, that you can change and move between the careers, with few limits. But it also should be logical move and there should be some reason, and make sense in the narrative - as you said. The main idea is important here, not exact words found from the book.

- You can always end your current career and start another Basic Career (also I would allow character to move to any previously fully finished Careers exits - this including Advanced Careers).
- If you have finished fully your current career, you can move into any Exit career, and this way also to Advanced Careers.
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Gideon
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Sun Sep 08, 2019 11:14 am

This was explained by Graeme Davis in ‘Onwards and Upwards’ in White Dwarf 89:

“In some cases, you have to complete the career (ie take every advance form the advance scheme and acquire all the listed skills). In others you don’t have to stay in a career any longer than it takes you to earn the 100 EPs necessary to move on.” (Emphasis added.)

In other words, you only have to take all the advances and skills in certain special cases where there is an explicit requirement to “complete” the career before advancing.

The article continues:

“As a rule of thumb, where the second career is a logical extension of the first (eg Artisan from Artisan’s Apprentice, Sergeant [sic] from Soldier or Mercenary, Physician from Physician’s Student), it is necessary to complete the first career before moving on to the second.”
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Rat Catcher
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Sun Sep 08, 2019 11:30 am

Thanks both for the info
Gideon
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Sun Sep 08, 2019 11:36 am

Rat Catcher wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 9:08 am
There's definitely contradictions here and quite a few too.
I think the rules are actually pretty consistent, though they might not immediately seem that way, and they certainly could have been expressed more clearly.
Rat Catcher wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 9:08 am
Page 91 "...characters are not allowed to change careers during a session of play."

Page 92 "Characters may normally change careers at any time, provided they have the 100 ep to do so."

Seems like a contradiction.
You can read them as contradictory, but if you read them as two parts of the same rule, they mean you can change career at any time, except mid-session. The first quotation makes it clear advancement only happens at the end of a session. The second establishes that within that context, characters can normally change career in any end-of-session advancement window.
Rat Catcher wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 9:08 am
Page 93: “By filling all the advances on the career advance profile, the character can complete that career”

Page 93: "Once all the advances in a career have been taken, the character can be considered to have completed the career, and may then select any of the career exits."

Page 93: "The Prospector career has 8 advances. At any stage, however, Ingrid has the option to move onto a second career."

All three rules come under the heading for “Basic” careers but the third seems to contradict the first two.
These do not contradict each other, if read literally. The first two quotations explain what completing a career is. They do not actually say that you have to complete the career to advance. I understand that you might assume the text implies that, but it does not at all say that explicitly.
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totsuzenheni
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Sun Sep 08, 2019 12:43 pm

Rat Catcher wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 9:08 am
I'm ruling you can change career whenever you want but it has to make sense in the narrative.
The rules on changing careers in first edition have always been more of a set of guidelines for the GM. I took a brief look through the changing careers rules in the rulebook, the 'Skills and Careers' article from 'Apocrypha Now' and the short 'Changing Careers' section in 'The Enemy Within'. From each of these, to a lesser or greater degree, and certainly from all three in combination it seems clear to me that the idea was to allow player characters to change career if the opportunity presented itself in the course of the adventure and if it made sense that the player character could take on that career, that is that the player character could take the opportunity because they had the relevant background in terms of their career path and skills, and/or as indicated by their current career exits, and/or because the career was a basic career, and/or because the career was a basic career in their class. 'The Enemy Within Campaign' has specific career switching opportunities for the player characters, particularly the pregenerated player characters, along with tutors to learn those harder to find skills from. There is also an example in the 'Changing Careers' section in 'The Enemy Within' which, taking on the voice of a GM, states: "Well you've killed the Town Burghers and fled the town, so the only career exits open to you now are as outlaws!" It's GM fiat essentially.
Rat Catcher wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 9:08 am
Page 91 "...characters are not allowed to change careers during a session of play."

Page 92 "Characters may normally change careers at any time, provided they have the 100 ep to do so."
I would ignore page 91 "...characters are not allowed to change careers during a session of play." I don't see how that works in practice with the more frequently indicated or stated idea that i've expressed above. At the same time i would take page 92 "Characters may normally change careers at any time, provided they have the 100 ep to do so" and the 3 preceeding basic options as a starting point.
Rat Catcher wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 9:08 am
Page 93: “By filling all the advances on the career advance profile, the character can complete that career”

Page 93: "Once all the advances in a career have been taken, the character can be considered to have completed the career, and may then select any of the career exits."

Page 93: "The Prospector career has 8 advances. At any stage, however, Ingrid has the option to move onto a second career."

All three rules come under the heading for “Basic” careers but the third seems to contradict the first two.
I don't think this is contradictory. Moving onto a second career is not the same as selecting any of the career exits. A player character can choose a basic career without completing their current career, as stated on page 92, option 2. and 3. under 'Changing Careers'. However, i note that the example of Ingrid the Prospector goes on to discuss which career exit she will take. If you read a bit further down the example it is written that "There are 12 advances on her new [Scout] career profile that she has not taken as a Prospector". There are 20 advances for the Scout career and 8 advances for the Prospector career, which means that Ingrid has taken all 8 advances in the Prospector career. (20 - 12 = 8.) (Note that the Scout career does have 8 advances: there are two Wound advances, a +1 and a +2, indicated by the '+2'. Characters advance +10 or +1 at a time. See 'Buying Advancements' on page 92.) So Ingrid has completed the Prospector career and that's why she can choose one of the Prospector career exits as her next career.
Gideon
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Sun Sep 08, 2019 12:59 pm

totsuzenheni wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 12:43 pm
It seems clear to me that the idea was to allow player characters to change career if the opportunity presented itself in the course of the adventure and if it made sense that the player character could take on that career....
I think this is a really important point. Regardless of what the rules say, any career change that makes in-game sense should be allowed.
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Rat Catcher
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Sun Sep 08, 2019 1:08 pm

totsuzenheni wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 12:43 pm
So Ingrid has completed the Prospector career and that's why she can choose one of the Prospector career exits as her next career.
Not sure what you're saying here. Are you implying you have to fully complete a career?
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totsuzenheni
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Sun Sep 08, 2019 1:16 pm

Rat Catcher wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 1:08 pm
totsuzenheni wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 12:43 pm
So Ingrid has completed the Prospector career and that's why she can choose one of the Prospector career exits as her next career.
Not sure what you're saying here. Are you implying you have to fully complete a career?
As i read it the rule, or guideline, as you will, is that a character does need to complete their career in order to choose one of their career exits. (Though i take Gideon's point that this isn't quite explicit i think it was the intent.) My point is that the example of Ingrid is consistant with that rule.
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Rat Catcher
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Sun Sep 08, 2019 1:22 pm

totsuzenheni wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 1:16 pm
Rat Catcher wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 1:08 pm
totsuzenheni wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 12:43 pm
So Ingrid has completed the Prospector career and that's why she can choose one of the Prospector career exits as her next career.
Not sure what you're saying here. Are you implying you have to fully complete a career?
As i read it the rule, or guideline, as you will, is that a character does need to complete their career in order to choose one of their career exits. (Though i take Gideon's point that this isn't quite explicit i think it was the intent.) My point is that the example of Ingrid is consistant with that rule.
Agreed. And that's the trouble I'm having. Which is why I wanted clarification. Common sense dictates you can change career when you want, if you have the xp and it can be justified in the narrative. Else I fear for my sanity :D
Gideon
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Sun Sep 08, 2019 1:38 pm

totsuzenheni wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 1:16 pm
As i read it the rule, or guideline, as you will, is that a character does need to complete their career in order to choose one of their career exits. (Though i take Gideon's point that this isn't quite explicit i think it was the intent.)
Graeme Davis was explicit in 'Onwards and Upwards' that that it was not the intent of the rules that characters should always have to complete careers. The rules can be read consistently with that interpretation, and they make sense. It seems to me straightforward to accept Graeme Davis' clarification as the meaning of the rules.
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Rat Catcher
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Sun Sep 08, 2019 1:46 pm

So what do you think about my clarification (for my benefit). Like, this is what I've type up in my FAQ / Clarification document for future reference.

"If you have the required XP, you can change career whenever you want. That said, it isn’t just about paying the XP, the change of career must make sense within the narrative.

For example, you can’t be hawking your wares as a Pedlar on the streets of Bogenhafen one minute, then suddenly announce, “Ok, I have the required XP so my character is now a Bodyguard. Let’s go!”

All that said; note that with some careers, you have to take all the advances and all the skills before leaving that career. This is explained in the core rulebook under the applicable career, where necessary.
"
Gideon
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Sun Sep 08, 2019 2:09 pm

Rat Catcher wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 1:46 pm
So what do you think about my clarification (for my benefit). Like, this is what I've type up in my FAQ / Clarification document for future reference.

"If you have the required XP, you can change career whenever you want. That said, it isn’t just about paying the XP, the change of career must make sense within the narrative.

For example, you can’t be hawking your wares as a Pedlar on the streets of Bogenhafen one minute, then suddenly announce, “Ok, I have the required XP so my character is now a Bodyguard. Let’s go!”

All that said; note that with some careers, you have to take all the advances and all the skills before leaving that career. This is explained in the core rulebook under the applicable career, where necessary.
"
Sounds good to me.
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totsuzenheni
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Sun Sep 08, 2019 2:37 pm

Rat Catcher wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 1:22 pm
totsuzenheni wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 1:16 pm
Rat Catcher wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 1:08 pm

Not sure what you're saying here. Are you implying you have to fully complete a career?
As i read it the rule, or guideline, as you will, is that a character does need to complete their career in order to choose one of their career exits. (Though i take Gideon's point that this isn't quite explicit i think it was the intent.) My point is that the example of Ingrid is consistant with that rule.
Agreed. And that's the trouble I'm having. Which is why I wanted clarification. Common sense dictates you can change career when you want, if you have the xp and it can be justified in the narrative. Else I fear for my sanity :D
As i read it the character can change to a career if:
  • it is a career that is listed in their current career's career exits and they have completed their current career. This costs 100XP;
  • it is a basic career listed in the basic career chart for their class. This costs 100XP;
  • it is a basic career. This cost 200XP.
Note that a career could fall into none, one or more of these 3 categories, in which case i would let the character take the cheapest.

All of this is subject to GM fiat on the bases that we have been discussing, such as narrative, opportunity, and so on. One criteria that hasn't been mentioned, and that i can't find an explicit rule for in the rulebook, but which is present in the example of Ingrid and is made explicit in the 'Onwards & Upwards' article in White Dwarf 89, is that the character needs to acquire the trappings associated with their career in order to change to that career.
Gideon wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 1:38 pm
totsuzenheni wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 1:16 pm
As i read it the rule, or guideline, as you will, is that a character does need to complete their career in order to choose one of their career exits. (Though i take Gideon's point that this isn't quite explicit i think it was the intent.)
Graeme Davis was explicit in 'Onwards and Upwards' that that it was not the intent of the rules that characters should always have to complete careers. The rules can be read consistently with that interpretation, and they make sense. It seems to me straightforward to accept Graeme Davis' clarification as the meaning of the rules.
I have just now reread that article and i don't think it is that much clearer than the rulebook. Graeme Davis writes that "[ i]n some cases you have to complete the career (ie take every advance from the advance scheme and acquire all the listed skills) before you move on to another career" and then later that "[t]ak[ing] one of the listed Career Exits for the current career [...] may involve completing the old career first". Whilst i agree that i think the intent is therefore to change the rule so that a character does not need to complete their current career in order to be able to change career to a career that is listed in their current career's career exits in all cases, but only in some, it might also be the case that the reason for this is because that career, listed as a career exit, is also available as a basic career, which would be consistent with what i've written above.

Essentially though i think we are in agreement: these were meant as guidelines, and in any case should be taken as guidelines.
Rat Catcher wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 1:46 pm
So what do you think about my clarification (for my benefit). Like, this is what I've type up in my FAQ / Clarification document for future reference.

"If you have the required XP, you can change career whenever you want. That said, it isn’t just about paying the XP, the change of career must make sense within the narrative.

For example, you can’t be hawking your wares as a Pedlar on the streets of Bogenhafen one minute, then suddenly announce, “Ok, I have the required XP so my character is now a Bodyguard. Let’s go!”

All that said; note that with some careers, you have to take all the advances and all the skills before leaving that career. This is explained in the core rulebook under the applicable career, where necessary.
"
I'd say that's fine as far as it goes and i don't think you necessarily need any more than that.
You may or may not want to add in the criteria about completing their current career in order to be able to change career to a career that is listed in their current career's career exits, either as a rule or as a guideline.
You may or may not want to add in the criteria about gaining the career's trappings before being able to change to that career, either as a rule or as a guideline.
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